6.5 creedmoor brass prep etc.

[swampratt]

Well this caliber is getting some recognition and I will play along and see if it is worth the effort to load for another rifle.

I have on hand 3 different brands of brass Federal , Remington and Winchester.
I got the brass from Store bought loaded ammo that I shot in my rifle.
First up was measuring cases after firing them in my rifle.
Deprimed ,Cleaned, annealed, brushed, sized and mouths chamfered the weights look like this in gr.

Federal......Winchester.... Remington..
170.0.......157.7............157.0.
171.1........158.1............157.0.
171.5........159.3............157.3.
172.4........159.7.
172.5.........159.8.
172.6.........160.2.
172.6.........16.04.
173.6.

Yea not the same amount in each sorry.
I did trim one Federal case that the beginning OAL was 1.917" I trimmed it to 1.909" and chamfered it again and it was .2 gr less in weight..most of the OAL was different between cases from 1.910 to 1.917 after firing..
I did not have a Lee case length gauge for 6.5 Creedmoor so I had no way to trim cases to the same length.
I decided to turn a .308 Case length gauge down in the drill press with a hand file and some sand paper.
Now I do have one.

I am using Hornady 2 die set FLS die and a bullet seating die.
I had to drill the bullet seating stem deeper as the plastic tip on the Hornady bullet bottomed out in it.

Fired the case neck OD measured .296", Sized it measures .288".
Fired shoulder measurement . .463", Sized it measures .460"
Fired case head area and above it slightly .470" sized is .469"
The shoulder Ogive fired measures .001" longer than sized so pushing shoulder back .001"

This is by raising the ram and turning in the size die until it touches the shell holder solid.
Then snug the lock ring.
Lee Cast iron single stage press.
Pretty happy so far with the Hornady die as it is not overworking my brass but the chamber may be on the snug side in the gun and that will help out also.

Onto trimming now then remeasure and fill each case with BL-C(2) and see if there is a huge volume difference.

I will measure loaded length of the ammo and how far off the lands and how it shoots of course.

 

[Cowcatcher]

How are you annealing?


This is gonna be another Swampratt invention! I hope y'all are waiting with a smile as I am!

 

[swampratt]

Propane torch in the house on the carpet (wide 2 pack type bottle) and sitting almost Indian style right leg is kicked to the outside.
Resting my left elbow on my left knee and holding an 8" long 1/4" extension with deep well 10mm socket.. wait that is .223.

I am holding a piece of copper pipe in my hands that I fit a case into and it bottoms out in the copper pipe because I dinked it on 4 sides with a punch.
I spin the case neck into the flame..I use the Bernzomatic pencil tip because that is what I have and I do all my copper sweating with that.
Anyway I count seconds while I spin the case neck in the flame above the pencil tip about 1/4".
Usually 9 seconds will make the color change and creep into the shoulder area then I pull it from the flame and place the round onto a coated steel or aluminum cookie sheet.

Sometimes I just hold the case in my fingers and spin it back and forth.
It will not get too hot to hold by the time annealing is finished.

I experimented with 650 Tempilaq and with sharpie brand permanent marker they both work well for finding how many seconds will put you in the ball park.
Some thin neck cases will only take 7-8 seconds and thick longer in a different caliber may take 11-12 seconds.

Sharpie will burn off and you are done at that point. Make 3 lines evenly spaced on a case neck and down past the shoulder and test that.
The sharpie method I came up with a few years ago when I was in Lowes and seen HIGH Temp sharpie.
Come to find out it burns off at the same temp as regular black sharpie.

I tried the water dunk I tried lights off or dim and watch color I tested lightly annealed vs way over annealed years ago in .308 and tested bullet seating pressures and in .308 I can be in the 7-15 second range and get the same bullet seating and bullet pull forces.

I did the test because some argued that the neck needs to glow and others stated if it is glowing you went too far.
BUT it worked for them.
So my 7-12 seconds the neck will not glow.. you get to 15 and it is glowing.
End result was the same so just to the point of glowing vs not glowing will both work ..at least in my rude testing of measuring PSI.

After annealing I brush the inside of the case with spinning nylon bore brush and then wipe out with Q tip and lube and size .. then clean off lube with Q tip and towel. ..Trim chamfer and brush again and Q tip inside 1 more time then measure and sort and load.
I hate brass prep.
I did deburr or chamfer the inside primer hole on all these.
I will now turn some Lapua .308 cases into 6.5 creedmoor Turning necks down first while they are .308 since I do not have a mandrel for 6.5..
No I won't the neck is wrong area vs the 6.5. Scratch the Lapua deal.

 

[swampratt]

I checked case volumes For Federal Winchester and Remington.
3 of each .
Federal cases are heavier and the Winchester and Remington are nearly the same weight.
Volumes followed.
Federal 53.6, 53.6 and 53.8 gr of BL-C2 powder.
Winchester 55.1, 55.2 and 55.4 gr of powder.
Remington 55.35, 55.4 and 55.4 g of powder.

The Hornady die made all the Neck ID's the same on all cases .261" ID bullets measure .264" OD.
The bearing surface on these 123 gr bullets is quite long at .450" give or take a few thousandths.
I have found when using a long bearing surface bullet accuracy is easily obtained.
And you do not need to push them as fast to get it. I hope that holds true for this round.

I do not see rain today so I may go shoot.

 

[rswink]

They are talking thunderstorms tonight. So, watching for a report.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[swampratt]

Just got back from Lexington WMA shooting range and measured the holes in the paper.
I did 2 Ladder tests..Yea I know 100 yards worthless data.
But data just the same and would tell me if I am in the ball park.
Front bag no rear bag same stock 3-9x40 Weaver scope that came on the Savage Axis 6.5 CM 22" barrel and pencil barrel at that.
1:8 twist stock Trigger also.

All bullets were the same 123 gr Hornady ELDM seated the same OAL 2.818" and CCI 200 primers were used.
IMR 4064 was up first in Winchester cases.
Shot by numbers
1- 37.0 gr. = 2,763 FPS.
2- 37.5 gr. = 2,759 FPS.
3- 38.0 gr. = 2,809 FPS.
4- 38.5 gr. = 2,822 FPS.
5- 39.0 gr. = 2,895 FPS.
Group size 1.095" and did not make any sense and this powder was no where near filling the case.
Not something I will try again in these Winchester cases.

The next target Ladder test makes more sense.
This time I used H4350 and it filled the case much better. Using Federal cases.
1- 42.5 gr. = ERROR .
2- 43.0 gr. = 2,847 FPS.
3- 43.5 gr. = 2,898 FPS.
4- 44.0 gr. = 2,950 FPS.
5- 44.5 gr. = 2,998 FPS.
Looks to be consistently gaining around 50 fps. NO flattening of primers and no hard to eject rounds.
It was 90 degrees outside.
Shot 3 and 4 and 5 went into the same cloverleaf or more like a sideways figure 8.
That is what I was looking for. The total group size in this Ladder test was .950"

Then I had 3 Remington cases I loaded 44.5 gr of H4350 into them.
Remember these cases are holding right around 2 gr. more Ball Powder than the Federal cases.
Velocity shows it also.
Down about 100 fps with these Remington cases.
Velocity .
1= 2,890 FPS.
2= 2,891 FPS.
3= 2,888 FPS.
Group size .670" center to center.. Yea only 3 rounds and shot 1 and 2 into a small figure 8.
This is where Neck turning may help or a better rest or small Reticle scope.

More testing for sure with the H4350 in the upper velocity area.

But I am happy so far and I wanted the 123 or something in that area for a bullet.
I did not want the 140's.
So far so good ..Now I need 200+ yards to stretch it's legs.
All brass was once fired from the factory loaded ammo I shot.

Loads discussed here are safe in my rifle and may not be in yours. You should consult a reloading manual and work up loads in your gun.
Play safe and have fun.

OH YEA almost forgot Chronograph was 24 feet from the muzzle.

 

[Cowcatcher]

Looks good Swampratt! I'm glad to see ya trying the 123's! What makes you go that way as opposed to the 140, 143 or 147? I'll tell ya that the only reason I'm not trying H4350 is because I've seen several folks saying that's what worked. Many of them didn't even try anything else they just went with the flow. I'm kinda do the opposite kinda guy and was wondering if that had anything to do with your bullet choice. Not that it really matters.

 

[swampratt]

Thanks Cowcatcher I hear ya on not following the beaten path.. make your own path.
I have over 8 lbs of H4350 and 24 lbs of IMR 4064.
I wanted 4064 to work as I use it in many rifles and it is excellent.
But case fill hurt me today.. you get air in the case and that air can warm up and make groups look sad.
So I have heard.

Now onto the 123 gr bullet.
Barrel life is it any different with a long bearing surface bullet vs a short bearing surface. That is on the bottom of my list but is there and I figure the 140's will be very long and I do not like the idea of a lot of the bullet into the case powder area.
I figured the 123 would be in the neck mostly and possibly have less of a long boat tail.

To get BC up they really crank out a long boat tail..I have not found good accuracy with that for the distances i plan to shoot.
If they had a 120-125 gr flat base in stock i would have got it.

Number 1 reason for the light bullet is I want to have quick expansion for quicker kills on critters.
The deadliest bullet I ever shot deer or hogs with was the little 55gr V-Max in .223.
Goes in about 2" and bores a 2" hole and then explodes like a hand grenade. Bang Flop.

I am hoping the 123 gr will be more like that and I think a 140 gr may exit easier and rip the far side shoulder off.
I just have best luck with lighter stuff for killing stuff that goes into my freezer.
I do not eat guts or heart or liver anymore so the exploded bullet in that area does not bother me.

I used 178 A-Max from my .308 on 2 deer and decided NO MORE of that.
Destroyed both front shoulders on 1 shot.
Next one almost took the head off the deer.
Pick your shot and bullet I suppose.
Just theory on this 123 ELDM for now..I will get meat to shoot at before I put theory to test on a deer.
Did the same with the 55 gr V-Max.

I also did some trajectory math based on published velocities and BC with 140 gr and the 123 gr.
Looked like the 123 will work best for my hunting distances.
If I was to shoot stuff like paper or steel past 500 yards the 140 may be better.
This pencil barrel, flimsy stock, stiff trigger Axis with Weaver 3-9x40 is not made for that.
I was thinking if accuracy was not good i would cut the barrel to 20 and retest and if still not good it would go to 18"

 

[swampratt]

I turned some of my .308 cases into 6.5 Creedmoor and measured case volume.
I just wanted to see if it was close and it was the same .
Federal and Lapua .308 cases hold the same Volume as my Federal 6.5 Creedmoor cases.
Win on that. I did turn the necks on the cases after forming them into 6.5
I will sacrifice some Lapua cases for this rifle and see how they shoot.

 

[tkdgeek]

I have some 140g SST still if you want a couple dozen. Too small of a group to interest you I'd expect but about all I have left. I like them and they have a good BC as well but as you were saying the 140 vs 129 or 123 isn't really worth the game difference/effort and shoot a bit less flat if you're going to hunt. I also have some 129g SP but I can see why you picked the 123 over them as the BC is not great. I tried them first because I had Hornady Deer Ammo (pretty inexpensive) and was reproducing those to learn from before something closer to Hornady Black (also on sale at times and source for my initial brass) for casual paper shooting fun out at the farm.
I thought about getting a box of 129 SST to work up but your info changed my mind and I'll likely get the 123 instead next time.
On cases, however, I'm interested in why not Hornady Cases? Preference to not care for them? Pretty much all I have in 6.5
I also use the Hornady Match die with an insert based on my barrel expansion to avoid a tiny bit of brass stress. (Internet knowledge, not experience, LOL) It will do more than I ever will as I'm too casual but I really like it over my Custom grade dies. Got it based on some of your comments I believe quite a while back.
Came on looking for powder info and noticed the lack of Hornady Case and it caught my eye. Sorry. H4350 bit too hard to get for a casual shooter. IMR4451 was easy to find and I don't believe (insert severe lack of knowledge) that it's that bad or far off what H4350 would do for someone like me. Need to get more but will read around some. Don't mind changing. Big part of the enjoyment for me is working up a bullet.
I enjoy reading what you write though as it give me ideas.