AR-15 pistol and a VFG

[Koshinn]

Ok I have a question. I have an AR-15 pistol and I want to add a vertical fore grip to the front to make it easier to handle.

The ATF (http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html) says this makes it an "Any Other Weapon" which requires finger prints, a picture, and $200.

The 9th Circuit Court (US v Fix, 4 Fed. Appx. 324) disagrees... note, this decision was in 2001, the ATF made that press release in 2006.

I think the ATF's main argument is the word "originally" in the definition of "pistol" in 27 C.F.R. 179.11 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/27cfr179.11.htm).

The ATF asserts that by adding a VFG to the front of a pistol, you're "making" a brand new weapon, changing the "original" intent to use it with one hand.

Since OK isn't in the 9th circuit, is there any other more binding ruling for OK residents regarding VFGs on a pistol?

 

[HSIG]

Have an SOT add the vertical grip and it's only a $5 stamp.

 

[Koshinn]

Does the paperwork take a long time?

And it's kind of a principle thing.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

Ok I have a question. I have an AR-15 pistol and I want to add a vertical fore grip to the front to make it easier to handle.

The ATF (http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html) says this makes it an "Any Other Weapon" which requires finger prints, a picture, and $200.

The 9th Circuit Court (US v Fix, 4 Fed. Appx. 324) disagrees... note, this decision was in 2001, the ATF made that press release in 2006.

I think the ATF's main argument is the word "originally" in the definition of "pistol" in 27 C.F.R. 179.11 (http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/27cfr179.11.htm).

The ATF asserts that by adding a VFG to the front of a pistol, you're "making" a brand new weapon, changing the "original" intent to use it with one hand.

Since OK isn't in the 9th circuit, is there any other more binding ruling for OK residents regarding VFGs on a pistol?

Even if OK did have a "more binding ruling" or was even in the 9th court's jurisdiction it would not prevent ATF from arresting you and prosecuting you. You would then have standing to appeal all the way to the Supreme Court and may eventually win, but is your wallet big enough to pay for all of those court/lawyer fees?

Have an SOT add the vertical grip and it's only a $5 stamp.

This is true. An 07/02 FFL/SOT (Manufacturer) could take your gun, add their engraving, add the grip, register it as an AOW (tax free for them) and then transfer it to you on a Form 4 for $5 (plus whatever they charge to do the work).

Does the paperwork take a long time?

And it's kind of a principle thing.

Just as long as any other Form 4, roughly 3-4 months. I do understand the principle of it too, but I can't afford to run afowl of the law.

 

[Koshinn]

If I was in, say, Nevada, which is part of the 9th circuit court, I'd lay down that case in the opening argument of the trial court and say: I win. Anyway, I'd get free legal defense since this would be a criminal case.

They could appeal it. Ok. The appeals court would probably rule the same way as that is what they're supposed to do.

They could bring it all the way to the supreme court. I could put on my resume that I argued a case in front of SCOTUS.

You're right in that nothing will really prevent a law enforcement agency from arresting me, you, or anyone. But attempting to prosecute when there's a clear ruling against them? Unlikely.

 

[Fyrtwuck]

If I was in, say, Nevada, which is part of the 9th circuit court, I'd lay down that case in the opening argument of the trial court and say: I win. Anyway, I'd get free legal defense since this would be a criminal case.

They could appeal it. Ok. The appeals court would probably rule the same way as that is what they're supposed to do.

They could bring it all the way to the supreme court. I could put on my resume that I argued a case in front of SCOTUS.

You're right in that nothing will really prevent a law enforcement agency from arresting me, you, or anyone. But attempting to prosecute when there's a clear ruling against them? Unlikely.

Good luck with that. Your lawyer would do the bare minimum for your defense. You get what you pay for. As said earlier, legal fees and court cost are expensive. Nothing motivates lawyers better than a bucket full of hundred dollar bills.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

If I was in, say, Nevada, which is part of the 9th circuit court, I'd lay down that case in the opening argument of the trial court and say: I win. Anyway, I'd get free legal defense since this would be a criminal case.

They could appeal it. Ok. The appeals court would probably rule the same way as that is what they're supposed to do.

They could bring it all the way to the supreme court. I could put on my resume that I argued a case in front of SCOTUS.

You're right in that nothing will really prevent a law enforcement agency from arresting me, you, or anyone. But attempting to prosecute when there's a clear ruling against them? Unlikely.

You said this 9th court ruling was in 2001. In the10 years since then no one in that jurisdiction has seen how free and easy it would be to challege ATF on this? You are the first to come up with this idea? I am impressed. I think you should move to Nevada and challenge it. If you win, you will be my hero.

 

[Koshinn]

You said this 9th court ruling was in 2001. In the10 years since then no one in that jurisdiction has seen how free and easy it would be to challege ATF on this? You are the first to come up with this idea? I am impressed. I think you should move to Nevada and challenge it. If you win, you will be my hero.

I was born and raised in the 9th circuit's jurisdiction, it's where I go to see my family when I take leave, and it's probably where I will go after my service commitment is up with the USAF.

I don't know if anyone has challenged the ATF in the last 10 years, but it's more than likely that the ATF just doesn't try to arrest people with a pistol with VFG in the 9th circuit because they know it's a complete waste of time and public image. I'd like to do what they did in the 9th circuit for Oklahoma... but I don't know if I want to risk a felony for that. There are other ways to bring up the issue.

Good luck with that. Your lawyer would do the bare minimum for your defense. You get what you pay for. As said earlier, legal fees and court cost are expensive. Nothing motivates lawyers better than a bucket full of hundred dollar bills.

I personally know many public defenders and I know the culture they work in. I forgive you for buying in to the stereotypes of lawyers as money hungry sharks, but not anyone can be a public defender. You have to apply and the large majority are rejected. Being a public defender isn't something you do because you can't cut it in a big law firm, it's something you do because you believe in the process.

Actually, most lawyers don't even do it for the money. I know this is a shock, but most come out of law school with a gigantic debt and will work years to pay it off. Those that do work in the huge law firms spend 12+ hours a day working in an extremely high stress environment. Those within 5-10 years of graduating from law school earn their money. After that, when you become a partner in the law firm, it's much like being in the upper leadership of any company. You make a lot of money for a lot less work, although you do make all the big decisions. You probably won't believe me, but most people who go to law school do it to make a difference. To uphold the constitution against all challengers, to defend those without the ability to defend themselves, to provide legal aid and help with navigating the maze of paperwork/regulations/statutes to those that can't afford it, to change unjust or ancient laws to reflect what society believes is now correct, and things like that. Here's an example: Hawaii is a "may issue", not a "shall issue" state regarding concealed carry licenses. In fact, almost all applications for CCLs are rejected by the chief of police... Hawaii has crappy gun laws. So who's fighting the hardest against this? Lawyers. Lawyers who do it not for money or for a hidden agenda, but because they believe in the 2nd amendment and the right of every person to defend themselves. This group volunteers their time and money to petition legislators and raise public awareness. They do it because they want to make a difference.

I've been around lawyers all my life. My parents and their friends are lawyers. I went to law school, so many of my friends are lawyers. I meet them all the time randomly as well. Lawyers get a bad rep because every so often, you see one make a ridiculous argument that gets accepted by a jury of your peers, and gets a very counter-intuitive ruling. But for every one of those, there are hundreds if not thousands of lawyers doing "good" by anyone's standards every single day.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

I was born and raised in the 9th circuit's jurisdiction, it's where I go to see my family when I take leave, and it's probably where I will go after my service commitment is up with the USAF.

I don't know if anyone has challenged the ATF in the last 10 years, but it's more than likely that the ATF just doesn't try to arrest people with a pistol with VFG in the 9th circuit because they know it's a complete waste of time and public image. I'd like to do what they did in the 9th circuit for Oklahoma... but I don't know if I want to risk a felony for that. There are other ways to bring up the issue.


I personally know many public defenders and I know the culture they work in. I forgive you for buying in to the stereotypes of lawyers as money hungry sharks, but not anyone can be a public defender. You have to apply and the large majority are rejected. Being a public defender isn't something you do because you can't cut it in a big law firm, it's something you do because you believe in the process.

Actually, most lawyers don't even do it for the money. I know this is a shock, but most come out of law school with a gigantic debt and will work years to pay it off. Those that do work in the huge law firms spend 12+ hours a day working in an extremely high stress environment. Those within 5-10 years of graduating from law school earn their money. After that, when you become a partner in the law firm, it's much like being in the upper leadership of any company. You make a lot of money for a lot less work, although you do make all the big decisions. You probably won't believe me, but most people who go to law school do it to make a difference. To uphold the constitution against all challengers, to defend those without the ability to defend themselves, to provide legal aid and help with navigating the maze of paperwork/regulations/statutes to those that can't afford it, to change unjust or ancient laws to reflect what society believes is now correct, and things like that. Here's an example: Hawaii is a "may issue", not a "shall issue" state regarding concealed carry licenses. In fact, almost all applications for CCLs are rejected by the chief of police... Hawaii has crappy gun laws. So who's fighting the hardest against this? Lawyers. Lawyers who do it not for money or for a hidden agenda, but because they believe in the 2nd amendment and the right of every person to defend themselves. This group volunteers their time and money to petition legislators and raise public awareness. They do it because they want to make a difference.

I've been around lawyers all my life. My parents and their friends are lawyers. I went to law school, so many of my friends are lawyers. I meet them all the time randomly as well. Lawyers get a bad rep because every so often, you see one make a ridiculous argument that gets accepted by a jury of your peers, and gets a very counter-intuitive ruling. But for every one of those, there are hundreds if not thousands of lawyers doing "good" by anyone's standards every single day.

Well, good luck with that and I mean it with all sincerity. I have been around NFA stuff since before the 86 ban and I have seen many a new guy think he has found a way to get around or challange something and it has never worked out once. But who know, you may be THE ONE. Again, good luck and I truly hope you win, but I won't be holding my breath. I now bow out of this thread as I have nothing more to add. Have a great day.

 

[Coltcombat]

Well, good luck with that and I mean it with all sincerity. I have been around NFA stuff since before the 86 ban and I have seen many a new guy think he has found a way to get around or challange something and it has never worked out once. But who know, you may be THE ONE. Again, good luck and I truly hope you win, but I won't be holding my breath. I now bow out of this thread as I have nothing more to add. Have a great day.

You will become the ORACLE of NFA and all things good! Gods will be inspired by you.

If you win your case against BATFE..lol...make a movie about it... you could get Mel Gibson to play you.

(....my sarcasm will display my confidence in the matter)