Army wants to dump the M9?

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OKCShooter

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Your comments were cherry picking, you left out the part that I said with modern ammunition there is little difference. I stand by the ball ammo comment that he is not far off.

I never said it was sealed in stone for my comment did I? Way too many variables in bullet performance in soft tissue for anybody to make a hard statement, but as the newest ballistician with worlds of internet experience, I'm sure you already knew that.

And what difference is a deer vs a human when considering shots to an anatomy, bleeding out, vs CNS hits, other than placement of their organs in relationship to a human?
Perhaps you can go into detail about their anatomy with me, how their lungs, heart, CNS, liver, spleen and how they are different than a human, and how a round has a ballistic effect on them vs a human?

The U.S. military adopted the 9mm pistol in 1985, largely to standardize ammunition. All other NATO states used 9mm for pistols. The U.S. also noted that most 9mm pistols were carried by officers and support personnel, who rarely used them in combat. SOCOM came into being a few years later and immediately began planning to bring back .45 pistols. Actually, many Special Forces and SEAL operators never gave up using the .45, as it was the ideal pistol for many operations.

LEOs assigned to special units with the LAPD (SIS, SWAT, etc) are authorized to carry and issued 1911s.
Currently, it's the Kimber Custom TLE II (.45ACP).

The Beretta Model 70 and the functionally identical Model 71, both in .22 LR, have served with great distinction as the signature terminator pistol of the Mossad, the premiere intelligence agency of the State of Israel. The Beretta 70 was also carried by Israeli Sky Marshals.

So do we argue .22 RF vs .45ACP?

Nothing to argue - in your world, .45 FMJ is 1 shot and they're down for good!


1 shot and they are down for good - is not a far off statement as long as 45ACP FMJ is fired. That's what you said.

Your inability to admit to being wrong is Oscar-worthy!



I agree, Boost...laughable.

His defense for the ultimate power of the .45 so far has been:

Shooting deer with different rifle calibers.

Fat people.

Israeli Sky Marshalls.

I'm starting to think he may have been on his High School debate team when he was a Kid.
 

JD8

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I don't know about the equality of the two rounds in terms of FMJ. Comparing the two you see a significant amount of displacement in the tissues in the .45 vs 9mm. Granted if someone is looking at the ft/lbs loss only, then sure, but maybe it's just me but I see a difference.
 

Junior Bonner

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I m not in the discussion comparing .45 to 9mm, because it is time to consider a rifle round in a handgun. There are two choices; go real big or real small. There are revolvers that can shoot .44 magnum light weight slugs that attain over 1,000 foot pounds of impact energy. The recoil of these .44 magnums is negligible when firing 180 grain slugs at high velocity. They can be stepped up to fire slugs in excess of of 330 grains. The problem with revolvers is reloading them quickly. On the opposite end of the spectrum are super small, super fast rounds like the 5.7mm which pierce body armor and FN has one that packs 21 rounds. This would offer a new and exciting dynamic to the debate of what to replace the M9 with. These are rifle rounds that do well in handguns. A 5.7mm is more powerful than a .22 Hornet. The .22 Hornet is to be found primarily in rifles. There are more options out there than 9mm and 45.
 

jakerz

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That video reaffirms that an fmj in 9mm or 45acp sucks. However, those are the rules. Do I want to get shot by either? Hell no.
 

SMS

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All this talk about caliber is fun, but caliber is not a factor in the MHS program, at all. The MHS program is not solely driven by terminal effectiveness either.

Terminal effectiveness is only one of many specifications in the project and the specs for that are not beyond the reach of 9MM.
 

ldp4570

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Curious... How many of you army guys actually carried and shot a handgun versus a rifle?

Transmitted via Tactical Telecommunications Device

There were several times I was issued a pistol instead of a rifle, mostly due to job description. Prior to 1985 it was a 1911A1 or a SW model 10, after 1985 it was usually a 92FS. I like having a handgun on my person, but for military type jobs I prefer a rifle or shotgun as a primary with the pistol as a secondary arm.

P.S. I've always been a good enough shot with a handgun that I was never really worried about caliber.
 

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