Army wants to dump the M9?

[Junior Bonner]

Not trying to argue with you either, but a persons reaction to being shot and the actual energy imparted are two different things. I can stick you in the rear with a needle and you will come off of your feet. The energy of the needle didn't do it, but your reaction did.

For another example, look at all the videos of rounds being fired into ballistic gel. Those blocks weigh about 40 lbs, but the bullets do not send them flying off of the table. So why would a person who weighs 5 times as much be knocked off of his feet. Back in the 80's, Second Chance body armor had a guy who would demonstrate their lightweight vests by shooting himself in the chest with a .44 Magnum. He would demonstrate their heavy vests by standing on one foot while a guy shot him with a .308 FN-FAL. Never got knocked off his feet.

I understand, but there are so many eye witness accounts. But I yield.

Edited to add addendum: I watched that video link, and I think the body armor dispersed the energy of the bullet and spread it over the body armor. I might be wrong, but I think they would have been knocked down without the body armor. Or, maybe it would be better to say that they would have had a different reaction.

 

[SoonerP226]

Spanish Republican soldier being knocked down by Mauser fire from Franco Fascists forces in Spanish Civil War. I won't argue, I can't argue physics. But it looks like some munitions do in fact have knockdown power. This man is literally knocked off his feet.

It looks to me like he's falling, not "knocked off his feet." It's likely that he involuntarily jerked back and to the left on the bullet's impact, but it is possible that the bullet carried enough energy to cause his body to twist that way--after all, when you fire a rifle from a standing position, it causes your body to twist slightly, as well--and you don't have to move a person's center of gravity back very far to get them to fall backwards.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

I understand, but there are so many eye witness accounts. But I yield.

I do understand where you are coming from and I hope you don't think I am trying to dismiss your opinion. I apologize if I came across that way. There is just so much exageration and misinformation on this subject that I feel it needs to be addressed. Did you see the video I posted above? I may have added it after you posted.

 

[Rod Snell]

Don't have any online links, but I ran across the study on handgun knockdown done by MGen Julian Hatcher, and he came to the conclusion that 100% knockdown from a single projectile traveling at 1911 .45 speeds would require a projectile 3 inches in diameter. Julian Hatcher created the % probability "Hatcher Knockdown formula" which has been discussed and cussed for a century. There is also a Taylor formula: http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

I also ran across an old memo issued to troops standing guard duty in the Phillipines during the uprising, which advised the soldiers carrying .30 caliber rifles NOT to shoot attackers in the chest, since "the bullets pass though the chest with fatal wounds that do not stop the attacker from completing his attack on the sentry." It advised shooting into the pelvis area so the rifle bullet would more reliably stop the attack.

MGen Hatcher was a great fan of machine guns producing multiple hits with large bullets, and established an Army machine gun school prior to WWI.

The pictures shown above of "Knockdown power" show mostly the unpredictable muscular reaction of a live animal being shot. MV=MV is a universal law, and is easily demonstrated using a ballistic pendulum or dead carcass. Any projectile imparts as much momentum to the gun as it takes with it; that is why artillery pieces are several orders of magnitude more massive than the projectile: to reduce recoil speed.
In fact, Mythbusters demonstrated the handgun knockdown myth on their popular TV show. They commented about the large number of "yes, but.." letters they got.

 

[Junior Bonner]

I do understand where you are coming from and I hope you don't think I am trying to dismiss your opinion. I apologize if I came across that way. There is just so much exageration and misinformation on this subject that I feel it needs to be addressed. Did you see the video I posted above? I may have added it after you posted.

No, no, no. I appreciate you backing up your position with fact. But I have read eyewitness accounts of it. And the photos appear to be more than muscular reaction. I can't argue with the laws of mathematics. I am kind of confused by the combat photographs and eyewitness accounts, and seeing the video demonstration. I am on the fence about this.

Edit: So give me your opinion. Why did the .45 Colt cartridge work so well against the Philipinos? It is hard to find the precise data on the ammunition they used, but the barrel length was in the neighborhood of 7". The bullets were non jacketed. The eyewitness accounts of knock down power can be inferred to mean stopping power, I'll go along with that. The ,45 ACP does not give police departments the results that the .45 Colt gave the Army in the Philippines.

 

[SMS]

Edit: So give me your opinion. Why did the .45 Colt cartridge work so well against the Philipinos? It is hard to find the precise data on the ammunition they used, but the barrel length was in the neighborhood of 7". The bullets were non jacketed. The eyewitness accounts of knock down power can be inferred to mean stopping power, I'll go along with that. The ,45 ACP does not give police departments the results that the .45 Colt gave the Army in the Philippines.

Why? Because war stories are always embellished and glorified over time...plain and simple.

 

[Cowman]

All of this Caliber discussion is fun and all. Based on my observations from the back box of an ambulance. Think it depends if it is your day or not. One call involved a person that had been shot with a .380 fmj. Wound was in the shoulder through and through. It hit an artery. Person damm near died if not for some aggressive interventions and a helicopter ride to Ou Med. They had to have blood in route. The person shot with a 22 lr in the head. No exit wound. DRT. The person lit up by the Police nine times with 45ACP. One of them in the head. Well, they is dead. If you want to end it. Go for Medulla Oblongata. If you hit him with whatever. Kind of over. Life or the lack thereof. Is a crapshoot everyday. I worry more about whether people are texting and driving than what caliber they are packing. Regards.

 

[Lurker66]

Why? Because war stories are always embellished and glorified over time...plain and simple.

My stories tend to get better with time. I mean, whats more interesting. ...I shot a guy 3 times and he fell dead. The .223 aint got no stopping power.

Or This dude was shooting at us and I was scared shi+less, so I fired back. I hit him 2 times and he got knocked on his azz and got up but I hit him again and blew his guts all over a banana bush. Man that .223 aint got no stopping power.

But your right, stories do tend to get embellished, as do myths.

 

[twoguns?]

" I worry more about whether people are texting and driving than what caliber they are packing. Regards."

2 Ton boolit?

 

[Raoul Duke]

Your prolly right. Like I said IMO, its about firepower. If im a soldier and fightin with a pistol im wanting capacity and reliability. The FN 5.7 should get consideration, im bettin it wont.

What about the RIA .22 TCM/9mm?

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=51687&index=1&mfg=All&mdl=All&cat=All&type=Semi-Automatic+Pistol&cal=22TCM&fin=&sit=&pid=&inv=

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=51949&index=1&mfg=All&mdl=All&cat=All&type=Semi-Automatic+Pistol&cal=22TCM&fin=&sit=&pid=&inv=

1911 platform, holds 17 rounds, and can run the NATO 9mm and the .22 TCM for cheaper practice and body armor penetration. The necked down .223(556?) case for this cartridge seems like it should hold some appeal for reloading purposes, too.

[video=youtube_share;OKSShOvs198]http://youtu.be/OKSShOvs198[/video]

[video=youtube_share;iMWB7VygMCc]http://youtu.be/iMWB7VygMCc[/video]

[video=youtube_share;-l7yXBaxu3I]http://youtu.be/-l7yXBaxu3I[/video]

It's the perfect compromise, everyone is satisfied, no one is happy about it.