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ef9turbo

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I guess I really don't understand what yall mean by sandbaging. Is it like drag racing, where you dont give it all you have so people don't know how good you really are?

I'm wondering this also. Maybe I need to "sandbag" and shoot A class, instead of jumping straight into Master. HAHA!!! I'll be lucky if I can get C class in my first four!
 

jtischauser

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EF9turbo, You should join to support the USPSA plus you get to vote for who you want as the 2012 Section Coordinator. You can often catch an all classifier match at H&H in the spring. They run 4 classifiers so you can get your classification in a new division before the shooting season gets in full swing.

Classifiers are notorious for standing and shooting. They also include a lot of gun and magazine manipulation. They are very much like military or police qualification tests. They are much different than shooting a 32 round field course that's spread out over a 30'x30 bay. The term sandbagger is used for guys that can shoot field courses well but not classifiers.

Along the same lines, there is a guy buy the name of Steven Andersen that has written a couple really good books on dry fire training. (I highly recommend them) He made GM in under a year practicing reloads, draws, strong/weak hand gun manipulation, etc. Despite being one of the fastest ever to earn his GM card, he has never won any noteworthy match. He is what the naysayers call a paper Grandmaster. He can do all the classifier stuff but can't win.

Both terms are derogatory!
 
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Mitch Rapp

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I guess I really don't understand what yall mean by sandbaging. Is it like drag racing, where you dont give it all you have so people don't know how good you really are?

My first IDPA classifier was shot with two guys, who had been in the sport a long time and were sandbagging. They were intentionaly pulling shots, and taking their time, as opposed to pushing themselves. How do I know? cause they joked openly about what they were doing after each course of fire. I didn't get it at the time, and after seeing my curious looks at what they were saying they explained that they were trying to make sure they got in a specific ranking, so they wouldn't be shooting against better shooters.

Pretty lame if you ask me. Put a bad taste in my mouth about getting serious in the sport.
 

Mitch Rapp

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My first IDPA classifier was shot with two guys, who had been in the sport a long time and were sandbagging. They were intentionaly pulling shots, and taking their time, as opposed to pushing themselves. How do I know? cause they joked openly about what they were doing after each course of fire. I didn't get it at the time, and after seeing my curious looks at what they were saying they explained that they were trying to make sure they got in a specific ranking, so they wouldn't be shooting against better shooters.

Pretty lame if you ask me. Put a bad taste in my mouth about getting serious in the sport.

To clarify, this is not to say there are not people who are like JT described in his post, but simply to say that there are people who try to abuse the system.
 

Mitch H.

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I can only relate my personal experience. I have used the term sandbagger to describe exactly ONE shooter. He used to brag about throwing classifiers til he got called on it. Now he doesn't brag about doing it. Calling someone a sandbagger has nothing to do with jealousy from my standpoint. I mean, really, how impressive is it to win your class at a major match when you are purposely shooting classifiers one level, or more, below your actual ability? It just isn't impressive at all.

Impressive is seeing guys like Mike Chambers and Chris Anderson working their asses off to move into the next class damned well knowing they will be at the bottom shooting against much better shooters at major matches. When those guys wind up winning their class, it will be because the EARNED it by working hard. Not because they cheated the system.

Just my .02
 

ef9turbo

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Interesting. I never thought that far ahead in the game to realize you could cheat the system. Of course I will be doing it to earn my classification. I hope to earn a B classification after 4 classifiers. I will probably join tomorrow while I'm busy at work :P
 

redneck1861

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I have not joined yet myself, but from what I have seen, a persons classification does not really matter that much. I shot a USPSA match on Sunday, I didn't win, or even come in the top 10, I shot 1 stage really well though and got 3rd for the stage. But overall I think I placed 20th out of 41, I shoot limited major, I beat some A class guys shooting open. I am not sure how those guys got a ranking of A, or how I beat them using a Glock with Irons, while them using a 2011 with a dot. That was also only my 4th ever match.
 

Mitch H.

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The match you shot Sunday is not representative of the USPSA classification system for a number of reasons. First, it's not a sanctioned match and they are not affiliated with USPSA. Second, if memory serves, everybody either shoots open or limited class at that match.

Show up to a sanctioned USPSA match, like the one coming up Sunday night at H&H. I'm sure you will see a difference in how the classification system REALLY works.
 
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Mitch H.

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Interesting. I never thought that far ahead in the game to realize you could cheat the system. Of course I will be doing it to earn my classification. I hope to earn a B classification after 4 classifiers. I will probably join tomorrow while I'm busy at work :P

That's the difference Eli. Not everyone looks at it the way you and I look at it. Good on you for looking at it the way you do.

As an example, due to an eye injury, I made a decision to start shooting open class. I can tell you my initial classification will probably be C class as it's taking me a little bit to get used to shooting with the dot. I could probably work really hard practicing, not shoot any local matches, keep my C classification and go clean up at a major match. But that's not me. I was 2% away from my A card when I had the eye injury. I will be working my ass off over the next month, shooting every local match I can, along with practicing, to get to B class or A class before any major matches. Why? Cuz that's who I am. I don't want it if I didn't earn it.
 

jtischauser

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I have not joined yet myself, but from what I have seen, a persons classification does not really matter that much. I shot a USPSA match on Sunday, I didn't win, or even come in the top 10, I shot 1 stage really well though and got 3rd for the stage. But overall I think I placed 20th out of 41, I shoot limited major, I beat some A class guys shooting open. I am not sure how those guys got a ranking of A, or how I beat them using a Glock with Irons, while them using a 2011 with a dot. That was also only my 4th ever match.

Classifications don't mean that much monetarily at a local level. They are important to for shooters to be able to gage their performance against their peers and other shooters across the nation. In your post you just mentioned beating an A class shooter. That's part of the fun. You get to see how you stack up against similarly skilled shooters.

Where they do start to matter monetarily is at larger matches where trophies and prizes are awarded. Most large matches award trophies and sometimes prizes for the winners of each class within the divisions. So a shooter has a better chance of winning a trophy or a prize by shooting in a class that is lower than their performance level and win the prizes for that much lower class.

I am told that in years past there would be GM shooters in one division that would switch division for major matches and shoot in a division where they held a much lower classification. That would allow easily win the lower division.

Fortunately, the USPSA saw this as a problem and instituted two very good guidelines to stop this sort of thing. They will only allow you to hold a classification one class lower than your highest classification. So if you are a Master class shooter in Limited division and you go out and shoot D classification in Revolver your first time out you will automatically be an A class Revolver shooter.
Similarly, the USPSA evaluates your major match performances and issues you a "bump" if you finish within a certain % of your division winner. This happened to me at my first major USPSA match. I was a C class shooter in the Production Division at the 2009 Area 4 Championship. I placed 2nd in my Class and finished with a score that was 60.X% of Dave Sevigny, the winner of Production. A few months later I received a notice from the USPSA that I was "bumped" to B class in the Production division.
So the worst case scenario is that shooters that are "sandbagging" will be shooting one class below their highest classification. It may not be a perfect system but it really is pretty fair.

So join the USPSA and get the great Front Sight magazine that comes with the membership. Get your classification and come shoot a major match. They are a blast!
 

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