Beretta M9/92F: OSA's Opinion

[MoBoost]

Sooooo .. what's the answer of the "caliber+weight" fanclub to the thousands of 300, 400, 500+ pound alligators being shot and instantly killed every year with a single 22 caliber 40 grain bullet travelling at pistol speeds.

My nightstand gun is a G21 with Arrendondo +4's, loaded with 230gr Gold Dots. Nothing says GTFO like 18 rounds of .45!

Despite all the caliber/weight/pistol discussion, in all seriousness - if you have a dedicated home defense gun it should be shoulder fired, I really hope I'm not alone here with that opinion.

 

[OKCShooter]

Despite all the caliber/weight/pistol discussion, in all seriousness - if you have a dedicated home defense gun it should be shoulder fired, I really hope I'm not alone here with that opinion.

I guess that I don't agree that it needs to be shoulder fired...

 

[JD8]

The bottom line of this whole argument is to use a weapon that you are comfortable with and practice with that weapon because regardless of which handgun round you choose, shot placement is the most critical factor in stopping a threat.

Very true, to be clear I'm assuming shot placement to be equal in this comparison. In any given location, I'd rather have a larger, deeper hole.

HD is another matter. My nightstand gun is a G21 with Arrendondo +4's, loaded with 230gr Gold Dots. Nothing says GTFO like 18 rounds of .45

Can't argue with that, I have a G21 next to my bed aswell.

 

[Shootin 4 Fun]

Some people are competent enough to use a handgun for home defense.

ETA: answer to alligator question, shot placement.

 

[MoBoost]

I guess that I don't agree that it needs to be shoulder fired...

ahhh.... touche!!! but you know what I mean.

Very true, to be clear I'm assuming shot placement to be equal in this comparison. In any given location, I'd rather have a larger, deeper hole.

(sorry about Beretta comment - reading comprehension kicked my ass)

Agreed. Things just can't be equal - for larger hole you have to give up capacity, for deeper hole you have to have more recoil and muzzle blast; for the sake in 9mm vs 45 argument, you do give up capacity and get more recoil, but the hole is not necessarily larger or deeper or there at all.

P.S. Ok, if I had a single round and AND I had to shoot in stomach and nowhere else - I will succum and agree that I would go with 45; I just don't think it represents reality.

 

[aestus]

Very true, to be clear I'm assuming shot placement to be equal in this comparison. In any given location, I'd rather have a larger, deeper hole.

That's what she said....

 

[ez bake]

Sarcasm aside, at handgun speeds velocity isn't necessarily on your side..... only thing left in that equation is mass. If you're putting force on tissue then both variables are significant and more power to whatever anyone wants to carry, just saying both matter in wounding someone.

Understood but the thing is, I'll never shoot a FMJ or cheaper (read out-dated technology) JHP round for self-defense. I'd go a step further and say that I'd probably never use a non +P 9mm round for self-defense (and since the Beretta 92/M9 can easily handle +P rounds, that's what I'll shoot in it for SD).

So at that point, there is definitely a difference between what I'm shooting in my M9 vs. what others are shooting in their 1911s/G21s/etc., but is it significant with regard to stopping an enemy? I don't particularly think its significant enough to give up the lower recoil/muzzle-flip (especially for CCW) and capacity. I'm not super concerned with the weight issue (larger/stronger frame required and heavier ammo).

There's plenty of tests out there with everything from water jugs, to dry-wall, to dead animals that prove that a Speer Gold Dot +P 9mm (124Gr), or Federal HydraShok +P (124Gr), or even a Winchester Ranger +P+ 127Gr do more than enough damage to be considered good bad-guy stoppers. These are modern-day rounds that have proven that 9mm has come a long way since a lot of the bad-press it got in the 70s and 80s (and WW-II ).

At that point, what good does a bigger/deeper hole in the bad-guy do you? Especially when you start having to give up things like capacity, and you add more recoil/muzzle-flip?

Why aren't we having the .45ACP vs. .500S&W / .454 Casull / .460 S&W debate? Because there is a balance between how much energy you need vs. how much capacity and control you need.

Whatever your caliber is, cool - but I'd love to read one of these threads without hearing all the bashing based on hearsay and 20 year old write-ups.

 

[JD8]

So at that point, there is definitely a difference between what I'm shooting in my M9 vs. what others are shooting in their 1911s/G21s/etc., but is it significant with regard to stopping an enemy? I don't particularly think its significant enough to give up the lower recoil/muzzle-flip (especially for CCW) and capacity. I'm not super concerned with the weight issue (larger/stronger frame required and heavier ammo).

Absolutely. The more I become exposed to trauma and those that work in trauma, I see how tough the human body can be first hand the more I become biased. This is not to say that 9mm is inadequate, it's to say that once you start playing with the variables in the simple equation I stated earlier, you're gonna get more damage, especially on tougher tissues, of which the human body is loaded with.

Now I choose platform first then caliber. The 1911, Glock, or Kahr is what I have best luck shooting in quick succession. The more training I exposed myself to the more I became comfortable shooting more powerful calibers in quick succession. YMMV. Will a 9mm always be slightly quicker? Sure, but that's where I differ in priority. Capacity? I'll take my chances with 8+1 and an extra mag.

Whatever your caliber is, cool - but I'd love to read one of these threads without hearing all the bashing based on hearsay and 20 year old write-ups.

and that's EXACTLY why I called BS on weight not being significant. The 20 year old article still has some merit but shouldn't be taken as gospel, just like any study done so far, as nobody can reproduce the human body in a complete manner.

 

[Shadowrider]

20 years ago, savvy .45 carriers would do what they could to get their pistols to feed the famous Speer 200gr Flying Ashtray. Even with a bigger bullet, a better bullet is, well, better!

Talk about a blast from the past! I still have a handfull of those. Never could get them to feed, was too poor to use a competent gunsmith and too chicken to try it myself.

My bedside is a full size M&P 45 with 15 rounds of 200 grain +P Cor-Bon JHPs. That ought to do it and if it won't the 870 will.

 

[338Shooter]

I think the Beretta 92 is a bag of crap.