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The Water Cooler
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Buying/owning a plane?
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<blockquote data-quote="dabigboy" data-source="post: 4004348" data-attributes="member: 50364"><p>Oh you've hit a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm an active pilot and have owned a plane since 2019. I also fly off-airport, along with several other friends. Flying is absolutely the best activity/addiction I've gotten into. I've been around it since I was a kid, and I love it. You have received some good advice here, but I also sense some generalized scare-talk regarding time/money/skills required. Let's get a couple things out of the way:</p><p></p><p>Avgas is around $5/gal right now. But there are plenty of planes (including mine) that are perfectly happy on non-ethanol car gas (87 is fine), including that Kitfox you mentioned. Fuel burn on a Kitfox (for instance) will be around 5 or 6 gallons per hour. So maybe $20/hr on car gas. Keep in mind it's actually lower sometimes if you're doing a lot of takeoff/landing practice, as you spend a lot of time at very reduced power settings.</p><p></p><p>Don't shop on Trade-A-Plane. That's the high-rent district. Check out Barnstormers.com, and also Facebook groups. I paid $18k for my Stinson 108 in 2019, that's a very capable 4-seater. Prices are up since then, but there are still deals to be had. Look at the old tube-and-fabric tailwheel models. An Aeronca Champ is a good 2-seat option that is right at home in the backcountry, especially with some big tires fitted. It's also pure bliss to fly. They can still be had for under $30k. Other options would be the Pacer, some Cubs, Rans, Taylorcraft, older Kitfoxes, Citabria.</p><p></p><p>Some of the ancillary costs discussed here are non-factors. Landing fees: only at a few big airports....I've been all over the US and have never encountered this. Subscriptions: you don't need them. Download a free moving-map app for your phone or tablet and go fly. I've flown all over the US with just a phone, tablet (sometimes) and a free nav app called Avare. But you can get a "premium" app for under $200/year if you want fancy features or just like giving money away.</p><p></p><p>There is no legal requirement to have insurance of any sort, though your local airport might require some basic liability coverage. That's all I have. Last year was around $360, which is the highest it's been.</p><p></p><p>Going off-airport is not THAT hard. Assuming 5 to 10 years of experience before you can start doing this sort of flying is absurd. There's no reason a competent CFI can't get you into the basics even as part of your primary training, in fact you'll end up a better pilot for it. The guy in that brown plane in my pics only got his tailwheel training the year before (though, to be fair, he logged like 100 hours in the past year, so he's flying a lot). I just crossed the 500hr mark myself.</p><p></p><p>Flight plans: not required for the type of flying you're talking about. You don't have to tell anyone where you're going.</p><p></p><p>I started landing on sandbars last year. My Stinson is not a bushplane per se, and I don't have big tires or a hotrod engine. I've found multiple places to land on the Canadian river, not far from the OKC metro. The sandbar in the attached pics is between Purcell and Ada. It's huge, I estimate over 1700ft usable. The people with the other two planes in the pic had never landed on a sandbar at all. The guy with the brown Cessna 120 was bone-stock with tiny wheels (600's). He struggled a bit, but was able to land and takeoff safely. It's not rocket science, but most pilots in the US have never known anything but huge strips of clear pavement with no obstacles around. Getting away from the pampered environment of an airport brings in a whole new set of risks and considerations. But it's just another skill set to develop, nothing crazy. Once you do it a few times, airports will suddenly start looking very "optional". <img src="/images/smilies/smile.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-shortname=":)" /> And Oklahoma is a good sandbox for learning off-airport ops, as we are at low elevation, and it's pretty flat. I've also done some backcountry flying in Arkansas, which is a little more interesting with the mountains. I've done the airplane camping thing in Arkansas, that's a hoot! Probably going again this year. Some of my buddies camp out on the river, which I'll probably do once the weather warms up a bit.</p><p></p><p>I personally find the unique challenges and procedures of backcountry ops totally fun and engaging. It's something to embrace, not be afraid of (respectful, for sure, but not afraid). It will grow you as a pilot.</p><p></p><p>As to the legality of landing in random places, it depends a lot on your state. Oklahoma doesn't seem to have a lot of restrictions. Remember, sandbars/gravel bars on rivers are generally part of "navigable waterways", so they are pretty much fair game. Plus, one of the goals of backcountry flying is to get to places that are not easily accessible by other means, so....who's gonna bother you out there anyway? <img src="/images/smilies/smile.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-shortname=":)" /> Wherever you go, be a good neighbor, respect others, share the land. I've passed spots up before because there were people too close by. Be mindful of your noise around houses and livestock, don't be a nuisance. I've only encountered people on the river a couple times, and they were totally cool.</p><p></p><p>I took my kids fishing on the river a few months ago. We didn't catch anything, but they had a blast. I flew my wife out before that, she loved it. There's a BBQ joint that has a field behind their restaurant, we like to fly in there and have lunch. I've landed at some grass strips owned by friends, that's really fun. One of the cool things about having a plane is using it like a car.....you want to go somewhere, just hop in the plane and fly over. This is also why I don't bother with flight plans.....I'm not on a schedule, and I don't necessarily have any particular route in mind.</p><p></p><p>I'm fortunate to have a wife who is in full support of all this craziness. I may be a "bad" influence, however...I'm at a point where I'm willing to spend just about any amount to keep flying, even if it means underfunding retirement/savings etc. <img src="/images/smilies/smile.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-shortname=":)" /> I gotta say we have been able to keep it pretty affordable, but there have been moments. One year I had to overhaul 4 cylinders and my prop....annual inspection ended up costing around $9k. Last year was better, only $1400. Some good advice I once heard about owning a plane: you need to be in a position where you can get your hands on $5k pretty easily at any time without wrecking your finances. My plane got trashed by crazy Oklahoma winds/storms last month, so I more or less cleaned out our non-investment cash to buy another (not as bad as it sounds, I found a smokin' deal).</p><p></p><p>I have contacts who can hook you up with intro flights and flight training in several different aircraft types. I'd be happy to take you flying myself as soon as I'm back in the air (I'm picking up the plane and doing an annual in two weeks). I'll PM you more details.</p><p></p><p>Matt</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dabigboy, post: 4004348, member: 50364"] Oh you've hit a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm an active pilot and have owned a plane since 2019. I also fly off-airport, along with several other friends. Flying is absolutely the best activity/addiction I've gotten into. I've been around it since I was a kid, and I love it. You have received some good advice here, but I also sense some generalized scare-talk regarding time/money/skills required. Let's get a couple things out of the way: Avgas is around $5/gal right now. But there are plenty of planes (including mine) that are perfectly happy on non-ethanol car gas (87 is fine), including that Kitfox you mentioned. Fuel burn on a Kitfox (for instance) will be around 5 or 6 gallons per hour. So maybe $20/hr on car gas. Keep in mind it's actually lower sometimes if you're doing a lot of takeoff/landing practice, as you spend a lot of time at very reduced power settings. Don't shop on Trade-A-Plane. That's the high-rent district. Check out Barnstormers.com, and also Facebook groups. I paid $18k for my Stinson 108 in 2019, that's a very capable 4-seater. Prices are up since then, but there are still deals to be had. Look at the old tube-and-fabric tailwheel models. An Aeronca Champ is a good 2-seat option that is right at home in the backcountry, especially with some big tires fitted. It's also pure bliss to fly. They can still be had for under $30k. Other options would be the Pacer, some Cubs, Rans, Taylorcraft, older Kitfoxes, Citabria. Some of the ancillary costs discussed here are non-factors. Landing fees: only at a few big airports....I've been all over the US and have never encountered this. Subscriptions: you don't need them. Download a free moving-map app for your phone or tablet and go fly. I've flown all over the US with just a phone, tablet (sometimes) and a free nav app called Avare. But you can get a "premium" app for under $200/year if you want fancy features or just like giving money away. There is no legal requirement to have insurance of any sort, though your local airport might require some basic liability coverage. That's all I have. Last year was around $360, which is the highest it's been. Going off-airport is not THAT hard. Assuming 5 to 10 years of experience before you can start doing this sort of flying is absurd. There's no reason a competent CFI can't get you into the basics even as part of your primary training, in fact you'll end up a better pilot for it. The guy in that brown plane in my pics only got his tailwheel training the year before (though, to be fair, he logged like 100 hours in the past year, so he's flying a lot). I just crossed the 500hr mark myself. Flight plans: not required for the type of flying you're talking about. You don't have to tell anyone where you're going. I started landing on sandbars last year. My Stinson is not a bushplane per se, and I don't have big tires or a hotrod engine. I've found multiple places to land on the Canadian river, not far from the OKC metro. The sandbar in the attached pics is between Purcell and Ada. It's huge, I estimate over 1700ft usable. The people with the other two planes in the pic had never landed on a sandbar at all. The guy with the brown Cessna 120 was bone-stock with tiny wheels (600's). He struggled a bit, but was able to land and takeoff safely. It's not rocket science, but most pilots in the US have never known anything but huge strips of clear pavement with no obstacles around. Getting away from the pampered environment of an airport brings in a whole new set of risks and considerations. But it's just another skill set to develop, nothing crazy. Once you do it a few times, airports will suddenly start looking very "optional". :) And Oklahoma is a good sandbox for learning off-airport ops, as we are at low elevation, and it's pretty flat. I've also done some backcountry flying in Arkansas, which is a little more interesting with the mountains. I've done the airplane camping thing in Arkansas, that's a hoot! Probably going again this year. Some of my buddies camp out on the river, which I'll probably do once the weather warms up a bit. I personally find the unique challenges and procedures of backcountry ops totally fun and engaging. It's something to embrace, not be afraid of (respectful, for sure, but not afraid). It will grow you as a pilot. As to the legality of landing in random places, it depends a lot on your state. Oklahoma doesn't seem to have a lot of restrictions. Remember, sandbars/gravel bars on rivers are generally part of "navigable waterways", so they are pretty much fair game. Plus, one of the goals of backcountry flying is to get to places that are not easily accessible by other means, so....who's gonna bother you out there anyway? :) Wherever you go, be a good neighbor, respect others, share the land. I've passed spots up before because there were people too close by. Be mindful of your noise around houses and livestock, don't be a nuisance. I've only encountered people on the river a couple times, and they were totally cool. I took my kids fishing on the river a few months ago. We didn't catch anything, but they had a blast. I flew my wife out before that, she loved it. There's a BBQ joint that has a field behind their restaurant, we like to fly in there and have lunch. I've landed at some grass strips owned by friends, that's really fun. One of the cool things about having a plane is using it like a car.....you want to go somewhere, just hop in the plane and fly over. This is also why I don't bother with flight plans.....I'm not on a schedule, and I don't necessarily have any particular route in mind. I'm fortunate to have a wife who is in full support of all this craziness. I may be a "bad" influence, however...I'm at a point where I'm willing to spend just about any amount to keep flying, even if it means underfunding retirement/savings etc. :) I gotta say we have been able to keep it pretty affordable, but there have been moments. One year I had to overhaul 4 cylinders and my prop....annual inspection ended up costing around $9k. Last year was better, only $1400. Some good advice I once heard about owning a plane: you need to be in a position where you can get your hands on $5k pretty easily at any time without wrecking your finances. My plane got trashed by crazy Oklahoma winds/storms last month, so I more or less cleaned out our non-investment cash to buy another (not as bad as it sounds, I found a smokin' deal). I have contacts who can hook you up with intro flights and flight training in several different aircraft types. I'd be happy to take you flying myself as soon as I'm back in the air (I'm picking up the plane and doing an annual in two weeks). I'll PM you more details. Matt [/QUOTE]
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