Thank you, Michael for your incisive comments....I'd rather that honest folks not need that advice, but out here in the real world....
thank you....great post
Thanks Michael, Now I just need to learn this instead of just reading it.
Very sound advice
this is what I would follow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
When the police show up they will have no idea of what happened.
I don't believe they will not detain me, from my description of what happened.
It would be in my best interest to wait, and not to try to explain myself after such a stressful event.
http://defendyourself101.ca/articles/why-you-should-talk-lawyer-talking-police
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
When the police show up they will have no idea of what happened.
I don't believe they will not detain me, from my description of what happened.
It would be in my best interest to wait, and not to try to explain myself after such a stressful event.
http://defendyourself101.ca/articles/why-you-should-talk-lawyer-talking-police
It's your life and money........
Do whatever you think is right.
I'm just telling you what my experience has been in responding to a lot shootings.
I don't know how many justifiable shootings either author has been involved in as counsel or a participant.
Judging from the video and some of the narrative on the other site, I'm going to guess I've been involved in more.
Also note that that video has already been posted in this thread.
Michael Brown
I am late to this thread. I wanted to comment on this one point [maybe more, later, on the broader topic]
There are a couple of reasons for the lawyer advising you to shut up except with your lawyer.
First, what you say to your lawyer is generally "privileged." That means that he cannot repeat it without your permission. The law wants all the relevant information admitted as evidence, and disfavors privilege. This one is nearly absolute. You, of course, cannot be compelled to testify against yourself. So, you lawyer is just about the only person on the planet you can discuss the case with without having to fear that the discussion will come back to bite you. Yes, there is a spousal privilege, so you could in theory talk to your spouse about it. Bad idea, since you spouse can leak it, or decide to divorce you and use the info to your disadvantage. Yes, there is a priest privilege. Bad idea to use it unless you want to trust your life to the priest. Better to wait for the NG verdict to confess your sins. There is also a limited psychiatric privilege in many jurisdictions. Same story.
Second, no matter how cool under fire you think you may be, your recollections will vary. You tell different stories, they are used to contradict you, and can be used against your.
Third, the precise presentation of your story matters. Precise. Your lawyer is going to get you focused on the best possible presentation.
I know why the lawyer tells the students to say nothing to the police. I have seen plenty of police reports where the case could not be prosecuted but for the statements that the suspect made to the police. Under pressure, you won't get it right the first time, and you don't get a second chance. It makes for a good case for keeping your mouth shut. Of course, keeping your mouth shut also makes for a compelling case for the investigating officer to take you into custody. What options have you left him? You have a smoking gun, a BG has entry and exit wounds, he cannot do other than arrest you unless he has a compelling case to not arrest you.
Did you know in some jurisdictions, the police union contract gives a time out before questioning to any officer who shoots someone in the line of duty? In Los Angeles, I heard it is many days - and then, the officer is compelled to talk to the internal affairs guys who investigate officer involved shooting. Compelled means the statements cannot be used in a criminal prosecution against the officer. The unions argue that this is needed to give the officer time to collect his thoughts, settle his nerves, get over the "tunnel vision" that happens in every shooting situation.
Of course, the cops involved in this are not generally going to spend time in jail waiting for the investigators to sort it all out.
jej
I want to make some late comments on Michael Brown's original post. In no particular order:
He said be the first to call. +1. Nobody should CCW without a cell phone. I'll go a related step further on how to handle your confrontation. Practice it, like you practice your draw/present/dry fire. What are you going to say to the bad guy? Of course, there may be no time to say anything. If there is, what's it going to be? How about something like "call the police." Maybe "call 911." Maybe, "put down your weapon. call the police." Loud. Know what a command voice is? Now is the time to use it. Even if someone else calls 911, do so yourself ASAP. Those calls are recorded, time stamped, and may be used to locate the caller. Maybe not, depending on the phone and the jurisdiction.
He said don't be standing there with gun in hand when the police arrive. A good idea if you don't want to get shot. No CCW holster is worth having if you cannot do a one hand re-holster. Your other hand may be hurt, it may be holding your cell phone, it may be busy with bad guys or first aid, or who know what. If you somehow cannot re-holster, find some other place to put it - pocket or belt or something. Keeping it in your hand is not an option unless you are on target and must stay that way.
He said do not clam up but don't go verbal spastic either. He also said do not lie. I want to comment on the second part of that. Lying to police is in itself a crime in some jurisdictions. In any dealing with cops, lying sets off their BS detectors, which are highly developed by dealing with lying bad guys all the time. Don't lie. If you choose to talk, be scrupulously truthful. If you think you must lie, you are way better off just shutting up. If you think you can lie and get away with it, you are a fool.
I am not picking sides in the talk/don't talk debate. I know that almost everybody goes "verbal spastic" [nice term] in such situations, no matter what I say. When I give advice on this, its tailored to the individual, so I won't give it here. I have to admit that my instincts are still those of the deputy DA I used to be and I have a high level of trust and confidence in the cops.
If you speak, think before you do. Think about this - if you are a responsible holder of a CCW, you will have rehearsed in your mind many, many times the conditions that warrant the use of deadly force. You will be familiar with the SDA and you will have rehearsed when and how to draw your weapon. If you have not done those things, do them now. Think about your test for whether you can use deadly force. I am not going into them here. If you have not had a simple phrase drummed into your head to remind you of how to address a shoot/don't shoot situation, do it now. Think about it when you think about your first police contact. Think about it hard. Hopefully, you thought about it before you pulled the trigger. Now, the cops are going to think about it, too, and they are looking for the data to make the judgment on how you acted
He said avoid dealing with the media. Yes. Avoid - you, your spouse, your family, should all just shut up. That's for your lawyer to do. Maybe. And maybe not. What you say is admissible. There is no calling it back once its on tape. Shut up.
Something Michael Brown did not touch on....every cop and deputy DA knows that they can produce an expert witness at the drop of a hat who will testify that alcohol reduces your mental capability well before it reduces your physical capability at all. Even very small amounts of alcohol impair judgement. If you shoot someone, your judgement is going to be questioned by folks who don't know you, beginning with the cops. It may be legal in some jurisdictions to have some alcohol in your system below the DUI level. However, its a piss poor idea to do so when you CCW. Remember that you will want to prove the necessity of your self defense. How do you do that if your judgement is impaired? Could a sober man have avoided the need to shoot? If you have beer on your breath, if you have taken any meds that may impair your judgement, don't carry. If you do, you will be treated differently by the cops than you would be if you were sober.
Sorry for the long posts. Its hard to get all this on a postcard.
jej
He said be the first to call. +1. Nobody should CCW without a cell phone. I'll go a related step further on how to handle your confrontation. Practice it, like you practice your draw/present/dry fire. What are you going to say to the bad guy? Of course, there may be no time to say anything. If there is, what's it going to be? How about something like "call the police." Maybe "call 911." Maybe, "put down your weapon. call the police." Loud. Know what a command voice is? Now is the time to use it. Even if someone else calls 911, do so yourself ASAP. Those calls are recorded, time stamped, and may be used to locate the caller. Maybe not, depending on the phone and the jurisdiction.
He said don't be standing there with gun in hand when the police arrive. A good idea if you don't want to get shot. No CCW holster is worth having if you cannot do a one hand re-holster. Your other hand may be hurt, it may be holding your cell phone, it may be busy with bad guys or first aid, or who know what. If you somehow cannot re-holster, find some other place to put it - pocket or belt or something. Keeping it in your hand is not an option unless you are on target and must stay that way.
He said do not clam up but don't go verbal spastic either. He also said do not lie. I want to comment on the second part of that. Lying to police is in itself a crime in some jurisdictions. In any dealing with cops, lying sets off their BS detectors, which are highly developed by dealing with lying bad guys all the time. Don't lie. If you choose to talk, be scrupulously truthful. If you think you must lie, you are way better off just shutting up. If you think you can lie and get away with it, you are a fool.
I am not picking sides in the talk/don't talk debate. I know that almost everybody goes "verbal spastic" [nice term] in such situations, no matter what I say. When I give advice on this, its tailored to the individual, so I won't give it here. I have to admit that my instincts are still those of the deputy DA I used to be and I have a high level of trust and confidence in the cops.
If you speak, think before you do. Think about this - if you are a responsible holder of a CCW, you will have rehearsed in your mind many, many times the conditions that warrant the use of deadly force. You will be familiar with the SDA and you will have rehearsed when and how to draw your weapon. If you have not done those things, do them now. Think about your test for whether you can use deadly force. I am not going into them here. If you have not had a simple phrase drummed into your head to remind you of how to address a shoot/don't shoot situation, do it now. Think about it when you think about your first police contact. Think about it hard. Hopefully, you thought about it before you pulled the trigger. Now, the cops are going to think about it, too, and they are looking for the data to make the judgment on how you acted
He said avoid dealing with the media. Yes. Avoid - you, your spouse, your family, should all just shut up. That's for your lawyer to do. Maybe. And maybe not. What you say is admissible. There is no calling it back once its on tape. Shut up.
Something Michael Brown did not touch on....every cop and deputy DA knows that they can produce an expert witness at the drop of a hat who will testify that alcohol reduces your mental capability well before it reduces your physical capability at all. Even very small amounts of alcohol impair judgement. If you shoot someone, your judgement is going to be questioned by folks who don't know you, beginning with the cops. It may be legal in some jurisdictions to have some alcohol in your system below the DUI level. However, its a piss poor idea to do so when you CCW. Remember that you will want to prove the necessity of your self defense. How do you do that if your judgement is impaired? Could a sober man have avoided the need to shoot? If you have beer on your breath, if you have taken any meds that may impair your judgement, don't carry. If you do, you will be treated differently by the cops than you would be if you were sober.
Sorry for the long posts. Its hard to get all this on a postcard.
jej
Jej,
Thank you for your input on this topic.
Having someone who is actually experienced in the criminal justice system is terribly beneficial to this community.
Michael Brown
Thank you for your input on this topic.
Having someone who is actually experienced in the criminal justice system is terribly beneficial to this community.
Michael Brown
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