Do you open carry?

[hrdware]

**snip**
Which brings up my the biggest question and probably some peoples worst fear(s). What is my responsibility and liability concerns if and when Im in the middle of a robbery while open carrying and the worst if Im actually shot at? (I took my CC class 12 years ago in OK and the guy leading it was very informative but our class went by pretty quick plus Im getting older so I may need to go over things from time to time). As an ex fighter Im not that timid and I do drill for scenarios so it would not be a problem mentally at all for me to shoot back- I just would need to make sure if I do that I hit the bad guy only. Hopefully someone has already called 911 and help is on the way, so the incident is hopefully not going to last very long but Im not going to count on that. Should I return fire ASAP? Do I have a responsibility to help these people in this restaurant get to safety by being the good guy with the gun?
**snip**

I'm no attorney so my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

You have no responsibility to do anything, and you have no liability if you do nothing.

If you choose to act you must do 2 things:
1) Know your target and what's behind it
2) Don't miss

You are responsible for every bullet that comes out of your firearm. If you shoot at the robber, miss, and hit someone else in the leg, you can be held liable for that.

 

[CHenry]

I'm no attorney so my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

You have no responsibility to do anything, and you have no liability if you do nothing.

If you choose to act you must do 2 things:
1) Know your target and what's behind it
2) Don't miss

You are responsible for every bullet that comes out of your firearm. If you shoot at the robber, miss, and hit someone else in the leg, you can be held liable for that.

What if you hit the bad guy between the eyes and the bullet continues through to a by-standards shoulder and he's not mortally wounded. Think anyone would really charge you for saving the day with a little oops tossed in?

 

[hrdware]

What if you hit the bad guy between the eyes and the bullet continues through to a by-standards shoulder and he's not mortally wounded. Think anyone would really charge you for saving the day with a little oops tossed in?

Depends. If you were the bystander would you be OK with paying your own medical bills to get yourself fixed up. Some people would take the opportunity to sue the carrier for everything they could get, pain and suffering, lost wages, blah blah blah.

 

[goldshellback]

I'll weigh in on this 'un...... I prefer to carry concealed. It's just nobodys business IMO. I have been 'lazy' from time-to-time and made short trips to town without covering my sidearm. Never had a negative comment on my infrequent OC escapades, but I did have a kid 'out' me in line to pay for gas once.... which was a funny event more than anything.

 

[CHenry]

Depends. If you were the bystander would you be OK with paying your own medical bills to get yourself fixed up. Some people would take the opportunity to sue the carrier for everything they could get, pain and suffering, lost wages, blah blah blah.

I think in my case if a good guy just saved my bacon, I would have no recourse of resent. Hell in a case like that someone would likely step up and cover/cancel medical bills. Here in OK that is.
The establishment I was in when shot would likely have ins that would cover it.

 

[dennishoddy]

There are so many things that could go wrong with a vigilante or attempt to stop a crime by a CC or OC.

Advanced training will address these situations. I'd sure look into that before trying to pull a gun in Burger King to stop a robber at the cash register.

 

[nofearfactor]

There are so many things that could go wrong with a vigilante or attempt to stop a crime by a CC or OC.

Advanced training will address these situations. I'd sure look into that before trying to pull a gun in Burger King to stop a robber at the cash register.

I think there are alot of people with CC permits carrying a gun-concealed or open- every day then who have taken the CC class and maybe even other classes too but still may have other questions about what to do with that gun while OPEN CARRYING during a bad situation- a robber holding up people or places in public, etc etc. There wasnt legal open carry yet when I took my first CC class so there are things about it I just dont know anything about. I dont OC anyways so this is all just pure curiosity for me as I dont plan on OCing in the future either. I only got to this place by stating Im wearing a shoulder holster sometimes this winter and about taking my coat off around people and finding myself pretty much open carrying at that point.

You say they should take advanced training, I totally agree. Where are classes held for advanced training? Where are the best places to take such advanced classes?

I think when the police tell people on TV during or at the end of their segments to always NOT try and take the law into your own hands, its for a good reason. But my curiosity here has more to do with scenarios when carrying open that involve you or you being targeted for carrying open and what to do.

I slightly remember and may even be wrong on a few details of an incident in public during the day some years ago where this guy was in line to get checked out at the Homeland on 91st and south Memorial when 2 masked robbers came in in broad daylight to rob the office. They beat one of the managers within earshot of people and then they came out and began telling every one to get on the ground, only the guy with the concealed gun didnt, he pulled his gun and shot one of them and then held his gun on the other til the cops showed up. Later it was all over the news with a lot of people calling the guy a 'hero'. I may have been a member here when it happened so it maybe wasnt more than 8 years ago.

I also kind of remember some details of another incident at like Batmans convenience store or some store in Nth Tulsa where a bad guy comes in the store and recognizes an off duty county or some other type of LEO who had arrested him before and he pulls his gun but the good guy got the draw on him and shot him instead. Middle of the afternoon public incident with other people around in the line of fire.

The only reason I brought this up was just being curious about what do you do when youre 'open' carrying and an incident in public goes down especially involving you. (I pretty much already know what Im going to do if Im carrying concealed, and something goes down in public). I get the advanced training advice, as well as lots of shooting practice so you hit what youre supposed to hit when or if you do have to return fire for whatever reason.

But I am still curious about what to do if they do shoot you, or at you, and how should you respond when getting shot at while carrying open? Especially those of us with no military or law enforcement training or have had no other type of tactical style training.

I will be looking into getting me some tactical training soon so thanx for the advice on more training.

 

[hrdware]

I think in my case if a good guy just saved my bacon, I would have no recourse of resent. Hell in a case like that someone would likely step up and cover/cancel medical bills. Here in OK that is.
The establishment I was in when shot would likely have ins that would cover it.

I'm not sure I would count on the establishments insurance covering anything.

A person, corporation, place of worship or any other business entity that does or does not prohibit any individual except a convicted felon from carrying a loaded or unloaded, concealed or unconcealed weapon on property that the person, corporation, place of worship or other business entity owns, or has legal control of, is immune from any liability arising from that decision. Except for acts of gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct, an employer who does or does not prohibit their employees from carrying a concealed or unconcealed weapon is immune from any liability arising from that decision. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to claims pursuant to the Workers' Compensation Code.

As the business has no liability, good luck getting their insurance to pay for your medical treatment.

It is possible that someone or group of someone would cover the medical expense of an accidentally injured person, but if you are the good guy with a gun, how willing are would you be to take that chance with a shot that you may or may not make?

Imagine this scenario. You walk into a convenience store to buy a soda and you walk in on a robbery. As you come through the door, I fire once at the robber, miss and give you a nonlethal wound. My second shot removes the threat of the robber harming anyone else. You have no connection to anyone in the store. Are you willing to forgive the wound and not expect someone else to pay for it?
What if the wound is life threatening?

That is one question we as carriers have to ask ourselves. How much liability are we willing to risk if we take action and we miss our target for whatever reason. Maybe the person I accidentally shoot isn't as understanding and forgiving as CHenry. Maybe the person I strike is willing to take advantage of any situation as much as they can.

No matter if you open carry or conceal carry, you have to know how much you are willing to risk (going both ways) in order to take action. Are you willing to risk the financial stability of your family in case a bystander sues you because you missed? Are you willing to risk having to live with the death of another person because you did nothing? Somewhere between financial ruin and the death of others is a line and each one of us has to decide where that line is for ourselves.

There are some that would wait until the robber was pointing the gun at them before they would act, even though 3 others are dead. Other people would act after the first person is shot. Still others would act as soon as the robber presented the firearm. It all depends on when you feel threatened, and where you have placed your own personal risk line.

 

[nofearfactor]

I know its just a TV show, 'Blue Bloods', but its my favorite Friday program and they seem like they do what they can to be as authentic as possible. There was an episode several back where Danny (Donnie Wahlburg) an NYPD detective and his wife were in a bank trying to get a 2nd mortgage when a team of bank robbers burst in in tactical gear and masks telling everyone to get on the ground and shut up. Danny had slipped his hand under his jacket while on his stomach putting it on his weapon but was trying to be discreet about it, and then the same loan officer who had just earlier denied him his loan was whispering to him "Hey, arent you going to do something for Gods sake, youre a freakin cop, you have a gun?". He told him "shut up, it doesnt work like that way, I have to have an opportunity". He took his hand off of it though and had rolled where the robber couldnt see his gun under his jacket when one of them came over and asked why they were whispering, and he said they werent, and the robber asked "Hey, are you a cop"? and he said "NO, Im just a regular guy". The robber wasnt convinced but right at that moment the team was done bagging the money so they all left with that one still eyeing Danny. When they left and everyone was up milling around Danny yells "someone call 911" while he ran out to see if he could get a look at their vehicle. When he came back in the loan guy who had turned him and his wife down for the 2nd mortgage asks him afterwards why didnt he do something that he's a cop its his 'job' and he quips back "Why? Its not my money". I know its just a TV show but it showed a cop on the ground with a gun during a bank robbery thinking of what to do but cant make a move and probably saved him, his wife and maybe the rest of them all from getting shot or something, he just had to let them get their money and leave so every one was safe.

 

[CHenry]

I know its just a TV show, 'Blue Bloods', but its my favorite Friday program and they seem like they do what they can to be as authentic as possible. There was an episode several back where Danny (Donnie Wahlburg) an NYPD detective and his wife were in a bank trying to get a 2nd mortgage when a team of bank robbers burst in in tactical gear and masks telling everyone to get on the ground and shut up. Danny had slipped his hand under his jacket while on his stomach putting it on his weapon but was trying to be discreet about it, and then the same loan officer who had just earlier denied him his loan was whispering to him "Hey, arent you going to do something for Gods sake, youre a freakin cop, you have a gun?". He told him "shut up, it doesnt work like that way, I have to have an opportunity". He took his hand off of it though and had rolled where the robber couldnt see his gun under his jacket when one of them came over and asked why they were whispering, and he said they werent, and the robber asked "Hey, are you a cop"? and he said "NO, Im just a regular guy". The robber wasnt convinced but right at that moment the team was done bagging the money so they all left with that one still eyeing Danny. When they left and everyone was up milling around Danny yells "someone call 911" while he ran out to see if he could get a look at their vehicle. When he came back in the loan guy who had turned him and his wife down for the 2nd mortgage asks him afterwards why didnt he do something that he's a cop its his 'job' and he quips back "Why? Its not my money". I know its just a TV show but it showed a cop on the ground with a gun during a bank robbery thinking of what to do but cant make a move and probably saved him, his wife and maybe the rest of them all from getting shot or something, he just had to let them get their money and leave so every one was safe.

Multiple assailants is entirely different than one. If I'm a loan carrier in that situation, I'm going to play ball with the bad guys unless they start killing people. I certainly wont die with a full mag.