God

[onemoreokie]

Have you ever considered the fact that it is you who doesn't understand, not me? Of course not - who could fathom such a thing.

Everything i believe makes absolute perfect sense to me.

It makes perfect sense to you because you've created your own religion, your particular brand of Catholicism. Your a SoonerATC Catholic and your the only one in existence. How many others Catholic's would share your views on "authentic" popes or who gets into heaven?

I did the same thing when I was a believer. I embraced the things I could agree with, that comforted me, and made sense. Then I discarded the rest. I questioned others whose beliefs were not in step with mine. This continued for years, this compartmentalization of beliefs. I was able to look critically at every other aspect of my life except my beliefs in the supernatural.

I never met an atheist until I was 32 years old. I didn't even fully realize non-belief was a choice. I always had lots of questions but I never had the courage to find the answers. It felt dirty and wrong to read threads like this one, much less to pick up atheist literature or watch Youtube debates. When I did started asking the hard questions things began to unravel quickly.

Ask yourself some hard questions,

If the Bible was the inspired word of god and was meant to instruct humans, then why can't Christians at least, if not the world agree on it?
If Jesus does make himself known to his followers through a relationship, then why is there so much conflict within Christianity about scriptural meaning?
If prayer does work, as some in this thread claim, why doesn't god heal amputees, the sick etc..? Why is belief so strongly influenced by birth location and family? Why does a good god allow so much suffering in the world? Is faith a good thing? Is Christianity good for women? What about all the other gods?

To quote Matt Dillahunty:

"While many Christians claim divine revelation — some even claiming that the truth has been revealed to them in such a way that there's no possibility that they could be wrong — there's hardly any points of doctrine upon which all these purported conduits of divine revelation agree. Which means that some if not all of them are wrong. And if you want to know what's wrong with Judaism, you ask a Christian. If you want to know what's wrong with Christianity, you ask a Muslim. If you want to know what's wrong with Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Calvinism, Hypercalvinism, Neocalvinism, Southern Baptists, the Church of Christ, or the First Baptist Church of Memphis, you can go to the Second Baptist Church of Memphis or any other denomination."

Take off the glasses and start looking at some things as a skeptic. The last two thousand years of Christian history look suspiciously like the work of people exclusively and not that of a god. The evidence to back up the claims religion makes just aren't there. You'll have to trust me when I tell you that's hard for me to say. I was indoctrinated as a child and giving up a lifetime of belief isn't easy.

I'm glad folks on this forum have been able to have a more or less civil conversation about belief.
I respect each and every one of you who have posted. We can respect each other as humans but still be critical of each other's belief or lack thereof.
All the best!

 

[Okie4570]

You mean illogical? Are you saying one needs a "source" to apply critical thinking to said explanation?

I'll ask the same two simple questions again.........Who is guiding your beliefs? The information that you deem to be logical, comes from what sources?

 

[JD8]

He is omniscient. He saw the total amount of suffering when man first sinned. That is why He was angry in the garden of eden.

Certainly it is noble to attempt to reduce suffering. But it is not logical that the very highest purpose should be to eliminate suffering. That is your subjective judgement. You might look into how different cultures view suffering and how philosophers view suffering. When I was in south Asia one of the perplexing sayings that stuck with me was, "Pain and happiness are one".

Again, these kind of explanations.... and that's being kind...... just don't work on me. This is why religion is so hard to get behind in most cases and especially christianity. Upon applying any logic, reason, or objectivity to several unanswered questions, man comes along and tries to feed you his interpretation. In many cases, it's a joke..... again.... being nice. It makes no sense that "god" would relay difficult answers through fallacy via man. Men whom constantly contradict themselves, if not ignore logic and facts altogether.

 

[JD8]

I'll ask the same two simple questions again.........Who is guiding your beliefs? The information that you deem to be logical, comes from what sources?

I'll ask the one simple question again and shorten it. Are you saying one needs a "source" to apply critical thinking?

 

[Okie4570]

I'll ask the one simple question again and shorten it. Are you saying one needs a "source" to apply critical thinking?

What's in your brain came from some source......... can there be "critical thinking" with a mind that been exposed to nothing? No. Still awaiting your answers.

 

[justinporter]

I'm a agnostic leaning towards atheism if I see with. My own eyes I'll beileve. Just does not make sense that he sends people to hell and he's all forgiving I understand rapists pedophiles and murderers belong there but what about innocents


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[The German]

I'm a agnostic leaning towards atheism if I see with. My own eyes I'll beileve. Just does not make sense that he sends people to hell and he's all forgiving I understand rapists pedophiles and murderers belong there but what about innocents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can rape children and murder all you want, when you are done for the day all you have to do is say "sorry buddy, forgive me" then you can go to heaven if you get shot as you walk out of your rape house.

 

[Dale00]

Again, these kind of explanations.... and that's being kind...... just don't work on me. This is why religion is so hard to get behind in most cases and especially christianity. Upon applying any logic, reason, or objectivity to several unanswered questions, man comes along and tries to feed you his interpretation. In many cases, it's a joke..... again.... being nice. It makes no sense that "god" would relay difficult answers through fallacy via man. Men whom constantly contradict themselves, if not ignore logic and facts altogether.

I think our discussion is proof that when respect is practiced, communication is facilitated.

Can anyone argue another into believing something or giving up a belief? No. The best that believers can do is lay out a buffet and invite people to partake or not as they wish. People make up their own minds based on personal experiences, confirmation bias/comfort and some very complex inner processes. I am a bit of a skeptic about logic being the primary reason behind people's beliefs. I think logic is a powerful tool but we use it to justify emotion-based decisions rather than relying on it guide us as a primary driver. Logic is also limited by what a person accepts as truth - the premises of an argument.

I know many people in the sciences who are religious. They use logic rigorously in their research. And there are Christian fellowships at every big name university famous for scientific research. This is a problem for atheists to explain, I think.

 

[120 Acres]

You can rape children and murder all you want, when you are done for the day all you have to do is say "sorry buddy, forgive me" then you can go to heaven if you get shot as you walk out of your rape house.

You dont have to ask for forgiveness for raping, just a few bucks to her father:

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Unless you are at war:

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

And god will help you out:

(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city

And then of course you can sell your children for sex:

(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

 

[MaddSkillz]

He is omniscient. He saw the total amount of suffering when man first sinned. That is why He was angry in the garden of eden.

Certainly it is noble to attempt to reduce suffering. But it is not logical that the very highest purpose should be to eliminate suffering. That is your subjective judgement. You might look into how different cultures view suffering and how philosophers view suffering. When I was in south Asia one of the perplexing sayings that stuck with me was, "Pain and happiness are one".

So, he sent himself to kill himself to save some of us from himself or the hell he created.

Makes sense.

My ways are above his ways because I don't require death or torture as penalty for mistakes. Your god is pretty brutal and not worthy of my endorsement. I agree with the holocaust prisoner who wrote on a wall....

"If there is a god, he's going to have to beg me for forgiveness."

The Christian concept of free will is a rope your god gives to everyone... Even those he knows are inacpable of handling it... "Now, go.... Hang yourself with it for all eternity... Because I love you." -God