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I know many people in the sciences who are religious. They use logic rigorously in their research. And there are Christian fellowships at every big name university famous for scientific research. This is a problem for atheists to explain, I think.

I know many people that go to church for their own gain. To be seen as a pillar of the community because they sit in church on Sundays. Politics if anything.

I even know a doctor that is a homosexual, but has a girlfriend that he takes to church every Sunday to be seen with a woman. They have no other relationship other than he picks her up Sunday mornings and goes to church. This poor girl cant understand why the dont move forward in the relationship. He drops her off and goes home to his "room mate" of 15 years."See you next Sunday".
 

MaddSkillz

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It makes perfect sense to you because you've created your own religion, your particular brand of Catholicism. Your a SoonerATC Catholic and your the only one in existence. How many others Catholic's would share your views on "authentic" popes or who gets into heaven?

I did the same thing when I was a believer. I embraced the things I could agree with, that comforted me, and made sense. Then I discarded the rest. I questioned others whose beliefs were not in step with mine. This continued for years, this compartmentalization of beliefs. I was able to look critically at every other aspect of my life except my beliefs in the supernatural.

I never met an atheist until I was 32 years old. I didn't even fully realize non-belief was a choice. I always had lots of questions but I never had the courage to find the answers. It felt dirty and wrong to read threads like this one, much less to pick up atheist literature or watch Youtube debates. When I did started asking the hard questions things began to unravel quickly.

Ask yourself some hard questions,

If the Bible was the inspired word of god and was meant to instruct humans, then why can't Christians at least, if not the world agree on it?
If Jesus does make himself known to his followers through a relationship, then why is there so much conflict within Christianity about scriptural meaning?
If prayer does work, as some in this thread claim, why doesn't god heal amputees, the sick etc..? Why is belief so strongly influenced by birth location and family? Why does a good god allow so much suffering in the world? Is faith a good thing? Is Christianity good for women? What about all the other gods?

To quote Matt Dillahunty:

"While many Christians claim divine revelation - some even claiming that the truth has been revealed to them in such a way that there's no possibility that they could be wrong - there's hardly any points of doctrine upon which all these purported conduits of divine revelation agree. Which means that some if not all of them are wrong. And if you want to know what's wrong with Judaism, you ask a Christian. If you want to know what's wrong with Christianity, you ask a Muslim. If you want to know what's wrong with Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Calvinism, Hypercalvinism, Neocalvinism, Southern Baptists, the Church of Christ, or the First Baptist Church of Memphis, you can go to the Second Baptist Church of Memphis or any other denomination."

Take off the glasses and start looking at some things as a skeptic. The last two thousand years of Christian history look suspiciously like the work of people exclusively and not that of a god. The evidence to back up the claims religion makes just aren't there. You'll have to trust me when I tell you that's hard for me to say. I was indoctrinated as a child and giving up a lifetime of belief isn't easy.

I'm glad folks on this forum have been able to have a more or less civil conversation about belief.
I respect each and every one of you who have posted. We can respect each other as humans but still be critical of each other's belief or lack thereof.
All the best!

Bravo! I mourned the loss of my faith... I wanted to believe it was true because I had invested most of my life into it... I wanted to continue to believe this unjust existence was spring board to the next one... In tears, wanting something from God.... Anything to convince me but all I got was silence. Yet, others were 100% sure and confident in their faith. They were either fools, liars or God convinced them in ways they could be convinced and the ways in which I could be convinced were just too demanding for him.

I really wish people understood that our beliefs weren't a matter of choice... The reality is it doesn't work that way and this is a critical problem to the Christian faith.
 

zghorner

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I'm a agnostic leaning towards atheism if I see with. My own eyes I'll beileve. Just does not make sense that he sends people to hell and he's all forgiving I understand rapists pedophiles and murderers belong there but what about innocents


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You cant see a lot of things that are known to exist...radio waves, microwaves, light outside of the visible spectrum, etc...

The problem with God is the bible. Look elsewhere for answers. People send themselves to "hell" with "hell" being the absence of god. Heaven being the presence of God (Christian) or brahma nirvana, oneness*with Brahman (Hindu).

This makes perfect sense if you believe in Reincarnation. The wrongdoings of this life will place you further from god in your next cycle of suffering (hell)...while good deeds and gum drops place you closer to God with the ultimate goal being liberation from a seemingly endless number of life cycles to join God in eternal peace.
 

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I dont think anyone could be 100% sure in faith alone. How can you not question a supernatural being when there has never been any proof of any other supernatural events or beings, ever?
 

The German

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You dont have to ask for forgiveness for raping, just a few bucks to her father:

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Unless you are at war:

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

And god will help you out:

(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city

And then of course you can sell your children for sex:

(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Wow, I do not remember that in Sunday school.
 

SoonerATC

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It makes perfect sense to you because you've created your own religion, your particular brand of Catholicism. Your a SoonerATC Catholic and your the only one in existence. How many others Catholic's would share your views on "authentic" popes or who gets into heaven?

I don't know the number - according to one source "tens to hundreds of thousands". I do know I'm not alone. One problem is that many modern Catholics just don't know their religion well enough to see the difference between what Catholicism actually does teach, and what is coming from Vatican City today. Similar to how many Americans don't know much of what our government does is unconstitutional, because they don't know enough about the US Consitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism

http://www.novusordowatch.org/about.htm

You can rape children and murder all you want, when you are done for the day all you have to do is say "sorry buddy, forgive me" then you can go to heaven if you get shot as you walk out of your rape house.

First you criticize Him for not being merciful enough and letting babies die, then you criticize Him for being merciful by allowing people to make up for past sins? If the rapist is TRULY sorry for what he did and atones for it, you're saying he should still be sent to hell? What if your parents threw you out of the house the first time you ever had a fight with them, even if you were sorry for what you had done? "Nope...you had one chance and you screwed it up. Get out!" So which way do you want it?

I'm a agnostic leaning towards atheism if I see with. My own eyes I'll beileve. Just does not make sense that he sends people to hell and he's all forgiving I understand rapists pedophiles and murderers belong there but what about innocents

Define "innocent" and tell me an "innocent" who was sent to Hell.
 

ConstitutionCowboy

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God created more than just man. He wrote the laws of physics which apply across the Universe, ergo, he created the Universe. I don't know if there is a fraction small enough(Divide one by infinity) to denote how insignificant we are in relation to the infinity he created, but there is a numerable sum of how much of His creation we are. Volume-wise, we are indeed insignificant, but given the power to reason is close to His own perfection and that makes us a significant part of His creation.

Our ability to reason revealed His existence.

All our suffering occurs within the laws of physics. Our expanding understanding of physics has enabled us to reduce our suffering. Maybe one day we will reach perfection, and when we do, it will be due to our understanding of physics - according to His design.

Woody
 
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onemoreokie

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I really wish people understood that our beliefs weren't a matter of choice... The reality is it doesn't work that way and this is a critical problem to the Christian faith.

Well put! Given my family situation it would have been much easier to have kept on pretending to believe. My mom would have even preferred that for family solidarity. I now know plenty of people who go to church and keep their doubt quiet just to keep the peace at home. Part of me can't blame them.

For me, I was just tired of being intellectually dishonest with myself and my loved ones. I was very fortunate to have a spouse who showed nothing but love and compassion through my deconversion.

When you take that leap and your out of the tribe the world can seem like a scary place at first. Life is really much easier when your part of the majority. Being a non-believer in the bible belt gives you an entirely new perspective.
 

The German

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First you criticize Him for not being merciful enough and letting babies die, then you criticize Him for being merciful by allowing people to make up for past sins? If the rapist is TRULY sorry for what he did and atones for it, you're saying he should still be sent to hell? What if your parents threw you out of the house the first time you ever had a fight with them, even if you were sorry for what you had done? "Nope...you had one chance and you screwed it up. Get out!" So which way do you want it?



Define "innocent" and tell me an "innocent" who was sent to Hell.

You are trying to compare child rape with me getting in trouble with my parents for eating too many cookies. Logic is lacking.
Yes, I do criticize your "him" for letting 2 year olds who cannot even wipe their own ass get raped and murdered but allow the child rapist and murder to go to your heaven. You and your child rapist buddy can room together in heaven.

Would you let a baby rapist stay in your house, just because he said "sorry". Oops, did it agian, but I am sorry again.


And please do not atone what I say as a personal attack or malicious.
 

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