Help in picking a good AR?

[Glocktogo]

To me the best reason for a mil-spec gun is so that off the shelf parts will fit correctly without tweaking. There's nothing wrong with a non mil-spec gun so long as it works, but don't be surprised if you buy something for it and it doesn't fit correctly.

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

As far as this 'Milspec of 1958' you seem to keep bringing up, the time when the M-16 was being developed and brought into service has little to do with the guns of today. I believe the last time the TDP for the M-16/M-4 got updated was in the late '90s or early '00s but I can't recall off the top of my head. I'm going to start asking around though.

Ek

These are all from the 90's. I did not look for further updates.

MIL-R-63997B (for M16A2) http://www.degrata.com/pdf/MIL-R-63997B.pdf

MIL-C-70599A (for M4) http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/m4milspec.pdf

MIL-C-71186 (for M4A1) http://quarterbore.com/library/pdf_files/mil-c-71186.pdf


A MilSpec is a set of standards and testing methods. Some manufacturers exceed these specs and some do not.

 

[doctorjj]

KurtM vs. english_kanigit (aka nobody I've ever heard of). This ought to be good.

[Broken External Image]

 

[NikatKimber]

OK, since nobody has posted "the chart" I will post it.

This is the one we're talking about right?

 

[CAR-AR-M16]

OK, since nobody has posted "the chart" I will post it.

This is the one we're talking about right?

 

[Glocktogo]

OK, since nobody has posted "the chart" I will post it.

This is the one we're talking about right?

HAHA! Priceless!

 

[inactive]

To me the best reason for a mil-spec gun is so that off the shelf parts will fit correctly without tweaking. There's nothing wrong with a non mil-spec gun so long as it works, but don't be surprised if you buy something for it and it doesn't fit correctly.

+1. I thought mil spec was not necessarily about quality, but uniformity?

 

[KurtM]

Well just because I have the time cause I'm sick and have nothing better to do.

Glocktogo has a very valid point, Mil Spec means parts will fit, for the most part, although at no point was a spec made for the mag well so even in "High End Super Mil Spec Rifles" you can find ones that won't accept certain magazines, and there is such a variance in the tri-burts mechainisms that many of those parts won't interchange and have to be mixed and matched...( although that may have been corrected by now but just a few short years back it plagued armorers.

CAR-AR-M16 is right that they are a set means of testing and a cetain level of standard, and in general a good one, and some times not so good...IE. Bradly armour meets a Mil Spec...hmmm, MREs meet a mil spec...Lunch anyone (now I myself don't find them that bad, but some do). Some foot powder meets Mil Spec, but there are many out there that are better. There are Mil Spec sleeping bags, but guys who want to stay warm and dry tend to buy their own like Wiggys, cause the Spec bag...well....sucks, but it does meet a certain standard.

I don't disagree that Mil Spec in the AR world is a good thing, BUT I don't think it is the end all and be all of the world either. Like many things it is meerly a good guide.

Now I have never worked at a range Kanigit, so I can only go by the very minimal examples of AR,s I have actually seen, shot , or been around (and I am sure that number is very small compaired to your experience), but the vast majority of AR problems I have encounterd have come from one and only one source..............the OWNER of that AR. It only takes one or two folks that don't know how to maintain an AR who buy brand X and have trouble with it, and who can *type better than they can read an owners manual when Viola brand X is just plain JUNK!!!*(note: dreaded inter-web refference).

My run down from the top, and of course this is once again from a very minimal amount of exposure to Ars, The most broken AR parts I have ever encountered, Had break Myself, or was present while they broke were COLTand FN parts. Bolts, Carriers, hammer pins, and tri-burt parts. I even had a sprung upper receiver right from the Factory in a BRAND NEW Colt L.E. Carbine...that met ALL Mil Specs. This isn't to say Colt is bad it points out that even the best can miss stuff and just because it meets spec doesn't mean it is necessarily good. (And it may also mean that I have been mainly around Colts, and FNs (LE/Military), but since I have very limited exposure to ARs in general that can't be it)

Bushmaster is constantly bashed so here we go. Yes they had a problem with their sight drilling jig, and they shipped their rifles very DRY, (as does DPMS)...in the 90s. That has all changed! and since they now sendd their rifles with more lube from the factory, many of the complaints have gone way down...HMMM make one wonder about the people buying them. I had a chance to "hear" about several training classes done in South America by Bushmaster for a country who bought their rifles. The trainer they hired made sure that the very first thing they did before shooting the first rounds was to clean and LUBE the hell out of them. They only had 3 rifles go down for the entire training phase out of 1500 rifles....HMMMM. That is the same trainer that now starts all his Carbine classes by stripping and oiling the carbines and has had great success with all the rifles running in his classes.

DPMS comes very dry as noted before, and will have a bit of problem sometimes. Once lubed up and fed good ammo...VIOLA a good running AR. I knew of a guy who once was commisioned by Privi Partisan to see how dirty their ammo was compaired to Wolf. He was given a boat load of ammo and 3 DPMS ARs. First one was shot out of the box, the second one lubed and shot to failure and the 3rd just oiled through the bolt holes and a little on the carrier rails every 500 rounds. First gun went about 400 rounds and started acting up, short cycle, double feed etc. second one went 1300 rounds before trouble, third one kept running and running and running till the groups opened up to 5 MOA and only half the barrel had any of those little groovey things, and the gas rings looked like hairs instead of rings. This doesn't say all DPMS rilfes are good it just points out that maintainance is IMPORTANT!

Saw a Noveske rifle continually fail the other day, short stroke/double feed faile to eject, bolt wouldn't lock back on the last round. Seem that the guys at "the Range" had swapped out his butt stock and had used an A2 length stock screw to anchore his collapsable stock to the main spring tube, cause they lost the one that came with the NON MIL SPEC M.O.E. Does that make Noveske bad? The guy who owned it was sure it was a JUNK rifle and was very upset he paid so much for a pile of crap! It is amazing that a $1.25 screw changed his out-look entirely

So in the end are they bad? Are they not maintained? I still think almost any of them are good rifles, it kind of hard not to build an acceptable rifle in todays parts market and any large company makes a fine product. I happen to like DPMS and have had great luck with the accuracy of their rifles and barrles. They really support the shooting sports and LE, and if one isn't right they have great customer service. I haven't broken any of their parts yet and in the price range stated it is the one I would get because I like the rifle to hit where it is pointed, BUT it does Need a Bit of Mil SPec OIL!!! KurtM

 

[ripnbst]

^Godzilla Post.

very informative though. Note to self, when buying AR also buy Astroglide.

 

[Mitch Rapp]

Ummmmmm....I am very happy with my Rock River.........?