Help in picking a good AR?

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Glocktogo

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Well just because I have the time cause I'm sick and have nothing better to do.

Glocktogo has a very valid point, Mil Spec means parts will fit, for the most part, although at no point was a spec made for the mag well so even in "High End Super Mil Spec Rifles" you can find ones that won't accept certain magazines, and there is such a variance in the tri-burts mechainisms that many of those parts won't interchange and have to be mixed and matched...( although that may have been corrected by now but just a few short years back it plagued armorers.

CAR-AR-M16 is right that they are a set means of testing and a cetain level of standard, and in general a good one, and some times not so good...IE. Bradly armour meets a Mil Spec...hmmm, MREs meet a mil spec...Lunch anyone (now I myself don't find them that bad, but some do). Some foot powder meets Mil Spec, but there are many out there that are better. There are Mil Spec sleeping bags, but guys who want to stay warm and dry tend to buy their own like Wiggys, cause the Spec bag...well....sucks, but it does meet a certain standard.

I don't disagree that Mil Spec in the AR world is a good thing, BUT I don't think it is the end all and be all of the world either. Like many things it is meerly a good guide.

Now I have never worked at a range Kanigit, so I can only go by the very minimal examples of AR,s I have actually seen, shot , or been around (and I am sure that number is very small compaired to your experience), but the vast majority of AR problems I have encounterd have come from one and only one source..............the OWNER of that AR. It only takes one or two folks that don't know how to maintain an AR who buy brand X and have trouble with it, and who can *type better than they can read an owners manual when Viola brand X is just plain JUNK!!!*(note: dreaded inter-web refference).

My run down from the top, and of course this is once again from a very minimal amount of exposure to Ars, The most broken AR parts I have ever encountered, Had break Myself, or was present while they broke were COLTand FN parts. Bolts, Carriers, hammer pins, and tri-burt parts. I even had a sprung upper receiver right from the Factory in a BRAND NEW Colt L.E. Carbine...that met ALL Mil Specs. This isn't to say Colt is bad it points out that even the best can miss stuff and just because it meets spec doesn't mean it is necessarily good. (And it may also mean that I have been mainly around Colts, and FNs (LE/Military), but since I have very limited exposure to ARs in general that can't be it)

Bushmaster is constantly bashed so here we go. Yes they had a problem with their sight drilling jig, and they shipped their rifles very DRY, (as does DPMS)...in the 90s. That has all changed! and since they now sendd their rifles with more lube from the factory, many of the complaints have gone way down...HMMM make one wonder about the people buying them. I had a chance to "hear" about several training classes done in South America by Bushmaster for a country who bought their rifles. The trainer they hired made sure that the very first thing they did before shooting the first rounds was to clean and LUBE the hell out of them. They only had 3 rifles go down for the entire training phase out of 1500 rifles....HMMMM. That is the same trainer that now starts all his Carbine classes by stripping and oiling the carbines and has had great success with all the rifles running in his classes.

DPMS comes very dry as noted before, and will have a bit of problem sometimes. Once lubed up and fed good ammo...VIOLA a good running AR. I knew of a guy who once was commisioned by Privi Partisan to see how dirty their ammo was compaired to Wolf. He was given a boat load of ammo and 3 DPMS ARs. First one was shot out of the box, the second one lubed and shot to failure and the 3rd just oiled through the bolt holes and a little on the carrier rails every 500 rounds. First gun went about 400 rounds and started acting up, short cycle, double feed etc. second one went 1300 rounds before trouble, third one kept running and running and running till the groups opened up to 5 MOA and only half the barrel had any of those little groovey things, and the gas rings looked like hairs instead of rings. This doesn't say all DPMS rilfes are good it just points out that maintainance is IMPORTANT!

Saw a Noveske rifle continually fail the other day, short stroke/double feed faile to eject, bolt wouldn't lock back on the last round. Seem that the guys at "the Range" had swapped out his butt stock and had used an A2 length stock screw to anchore his collapsable stock to the main spring tube, cause they lost the one that came with the NON MIL SPEC M.O.E. Does that make Noveske bad? The guy who owned it was sure it was a JUNK rifle and was very upset he paid so much for a pile of crap! It is amazing that a $1.25 screw changed his out-look entirely

So in the end are they bad? Are they not maintained? I still think almost any of them are good rifles, it kind of hard not to build an acceptable rifle in todays parts market and any large company makes a fine product. I happen to like DPMS and have had great luck with the accuracy of their rifles and barrles. They really support the shooting sports and LE, and if one isn't right they have great customer service. I haven't broken any of their parts yet and in the price range stated it is the one I would get because I like the rifle to hit where it is pointed, BUT it does Need a Bit of Mil SPec OIL!!! KurtM

Excellent post and definitely quote worthy! I have a DPMS lower and Professional Ordinance upper setup that I use for short course work. It runs exceptionally well and is a VERY fast handling rig!

One thing I do appreciate about Noveske though, they send their rifles out positively gooey! And not with cosmoline or some other type of corrosion protection, but honest to goodness grease and oil, designed to be used while shooting! It's the only manufacturer I've encountered that I literally don't have to strip the gun and relube it to spec. Just open the box, add ammo and shoot! :)
 

NikatKimber

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HAHA! Priceless! :yelclap:

I'm glad someone got some humor out of that!

I won't say a Noveske isn't worth the money, or that I don't want one (I'd love one!!)

But each user needs to honestly evaluate their needs/wants before shelling out ANY money.

For me, what I have has been great. But I'm a "hobby shooter"... I've put less than 1k through my gun in the 2 years I've owned it. It's served me well. It's not a SHTF gun, nor a duty gun, and I have no requirement for it to run 1k a day classes right now either.

For people who *will* be competing, or patrolling, or going into harms way with the gun, it may well be worth the $$$ for a top end gun.

Personally, I'd think anyone new to ARs on a $1k budget (total) would be better served by the $499 Del-Ton special in the classifieds, and $501 worth of ammo, vs $980 on a gun and a box of 20 rounds at Walmart.

In reference to Mil-Spec, I don't know how the Mil spec is worded, but for the most part, specs are the minimum acceptable. So technically it would be "Made to Mil-Spec or better." IE, hold all else constant, would a 1/2 moa barrel be Mil-Spec? Yes, even if Spec calls for 2 moa. 1/2 moa meets the 2 moa requirement. If Mil-Spec called for bolt machining to be done to +/- 0.005", and a company built theirs to +/- 0.001", they meet the Mil-Spec.

Just like if I build my house, I won't make it "to" the codes, it will exceed them.
 

Shootin 4 Fun

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Before the Del Ton kits got so cheap I built an AR out of the cheapest parts, that I could find (with the exception of the RRA two-stage trigger), after about 2000 rounds I've yet to have a failure or clean it.

Unless you're going to run the hell out of it like some of our resident world class competitors the Del Ton should be just awesome for your needs. Save the other half of your budget for your next build or to upgrade.....because you will be modifying and upgrading.
 

bettingpython

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Buy a basic AR, that Daniel defense link was well worth it BTW, budget 400 for ammo and 400 for a class to burn that ammo in and learn to drive that rifle.

And I will throw CMMG out there as well.

I built a franken rifle that runs really well, an entire day of TDSA ur1 without relube and no errors lubed it up for day2 and again no errors all day in a 2 day 1000 round class.

So far I have run close to 3k rounds through the rifle I built with only one misfire and that was the ammo not the rifle reloaded the round to restrike it and still no bang, but I also run it wet CLP is your friend.
 

338Shooter

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I say go Noveske like me. :D

ai306.photobucket.com_albums_nn269_dustingaunder_Guns_20and_20Related_ARs_ba4d2d80.jpg
 

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