Help in picking a good AR?

[Gonewithwind]

So it is relatively easy to put together and switch out parts on the del-ton? Or for any other ar?

To put togther, I found an online forum...took about 45 min to assemble first, and about 15 for second...i took my time and didn't break the ears on either one. I'm currently doing research on new handguard and sights. I did purchase fixed rear to start, Nc Star (yes was maintaining budget) and with no experience, I have found it to be acceptable for now. From the research, I see no problems changing furniture, the M4 is well built as far as I can tell and by putting the striped lower together, any replacment in this area seems fair for the do it yourselfer. Im sure there are better products, but I am extremely satisfied. As time goes by, i'll post the "build" and comment on exchanging equipment. but I think the Del-Ton is acceptable to "after market" products as any other brand AR M4.

Gonewithwind

PS she's still grinning ear to ear...and now is demanding a green laser LOL


I would hate for you to buy one only because I recommended it, and find that you may have wished you went a different rout...I'm saying it's all she and I need, fit the budget, and have a few extra bucks to look for add ons...I doubt that futuristicly we will have any dissapointment.

 

[KurtM]

Well to finish this off, here is what Paul Howe has to say about this deal. Now Paul is Ex-Delta, fought in Samolia, and is a tactical instructor of some renown.

"I enjoy reading the chat forums on who has the better AR and that Iron Sights are out of date. Homework must be accompanied with field work. Some folks produce charts, we produce brass.

The most common problem I have seen with the M4 style system is not the manufacturer, but the operator using it. I still have students coming to an instructor class that cannot break the weapon down for cleaning. Also, many do not know how to properly lubricate it.

I see all brands and they run fine when cleaned and lubricated. I also see high dollar guns choke as often as the low dollar guns. Sometimes it is the magazine. Sometimes it is a critical component. We had a Noveske last class and the shooter found the firing pin bent (nice curve to it) and the end where the hammer strikes was visibly worn down as if made of a cheap metal. We also had a BCM charging handle that warped and went south. A DPMS Frankenstein gun did choke until the operator lubed it and then it ran just fine. Finally, an LMT upper had problems and it was determined it was the result of a bad magazine.

In the end, it is just like any other piece of equipment and will work as long as you properly care for it. If you don’t know much about the guns, take a reputable class and learn how to operate and maintain your weapon. Rent one if possible and then make an informed buying decision from there. Just as I don’t advise buying a high dollar BMW as someone’s first car, I don’t believe you should buy the most expensive weapon as your first weapon. I would never buy one of my kids a high-dollar rifle for their first weapon. I would give them a “beater” to shoot and care for. Once they prove themselves worthy, I might consider one as Christmas present.

As for a Bushmaster or DPMS being inferior, I don’t buy it. There are probably more DPMS and Bushmaster guns in the hands of Law Enforcement than any other weapon and I know those guns have put more bad guys in the ground than all of the high-dollar guns combined. If cared for properly, they run and run well. There are a few “cult” like followers of other shooting instructors who say that if you don’t have this gun, your gun will fail and you will get killed, etc…. They are arrogant and snobbish at best.

I had more guns choke last month in the instructor class than we could keep a log on. If we had tried to log all of the problems, the class would have stalled. Weapons maintenance, load procedures and magazines were the primary culprit-not the weapon. Many of the instructor students were “too proud” to log in the book that their rifle failed. They would quietly correct the problem and continue on.

As for irons being outdated, I have never seen the batteries die on irons or irons not work when they were needed. As for optics being better at night, they may be slightly better. Both iron and optics shooters need a good light as you must discriminate before you can shoot, so the discrimination process is going to slow you down in any case. Realistically without magnification, you cannot discriminate at night until about 15 yards and clearly see what is in someone’s hands. I have also seen a great deal of optics fail in both combat and competitions. When they did fail, they did not go to back-up optics, they went to back up irons. I have friends whose EO Techs dots “washed out” in bright sunlight and they had to go to irons to make a real world shot. No one talks about these cases.

Finally, for all you folks with those funky compensators that look like they were manufactured by a drunken machinist, they don’t help. In fact, they are dangerous in the tactical world. They abuse all shooters and instructors around them and can actually endanger other shooters when firing in tight tactical situations. When I see one on a rifle, it tells me the shooter has no tactical sense or background. They may help you shoot a ½ second faster on a 3 second drill, but the disadvantages outweigh the advantages by far. It is 5.56, not a .308 and it is like putting a compensator on a 9mm.

Sorry to rant. It gets old seeing folks spend money on gimmicks that are supposed to help them shoot, vs. learning the proper fundamentals.

 

[english kanigit]

Kurt, I'm glad you posted that up. I had forgotten about this as kicking around south padre island and 'little mexico' was a bit distracting.

Since you have been up so long I will keep this short, but what exactly is an "incorrect twist rate"?

Honest answer? Damned if I know why I said that. The 1/9 twist rate isn't the best thing in the book but it's a good compromise for manufacturers that make a lot of commercial-grade guns. The thing that kept going through my head as I typed this was the miss-marked chambers that bushmaster and others seem to put out as a regular feature.

Having a gun marked '5.56' when the chamber is actually a .223 is bad news. The tighter dimensions of the .223 chamber are a problem when using 5.56 ammo as it leads to things like stuck cases, popped primers that get stuck in all sorts of interesting places and often tie up the gun.

When the company manufacturing the gun can't be troubled to accurately mark the gun as to it's critical dimensions that leads me to conclude that most of what they do is suspect.

Your mileage may vary of course.

Guys, Don't get me wrong here, I am not ANTI Mil Spec. If two bolt and carrier setups were laying side by side and I knew one was mil spec and the other I didn't know I would grab the mil spec. Would I buy a mil spec barrel...YES but for burning out not for general use, WHY? Because I want more out of my barrels than can be provided by a mil spec barrel. I also would buy any of the ABCS parts without reservation. I also wouldn't touch the mil spec bolt and carrier if a good J.P. unit was on the table next to it. I would NEVER run a mil spec trigger...unless it is in a full auto gun and even then I have run J.P.s in them as well. There was a time when in order to get quality parts it was advised to buy Mil Spec, but these days anything you get from a major manufacturer is good gear. Does anyone really think that Bushmaster doesn't do all they can to make a good rifle when they know DPMS, SABER, ARMALITE and a host of other makers could take away all their market? DO you really think DPMS would continue to make junk?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing parts that meet a specific need that you may have. Hell, that's what keeps places like Brownells in business. This assumes of course that the person needing the parts is adequate to the task of making sure they get what they need. While I'm sure you are up to the task of taking care of YOUR needs that's not the original purpose of this thread which is setting a new guy up with a first AR.


Thanks for putting up the bit from Howe. From what I've heard out of friends who know him or have trained with him he's an all-around good dude. I look forward to taking several of his classes at some point.

That being said there is no need to start a new person off with stuff that may be questionable. This comes back to that whole 'minimum standard' thing. Nowadays there are too many manufacturers making good solid guns and doing so affordably to mess with others that have not always done the same.

Kurt has a funny way of saying things here. Suffice to say that he's shot barrels/guns to death for years, and he's saying that if it was his money to spend, he'd buy DPMS. So take that for what it is.

Bring out those ATAS BCM carbines to the 3-gun match next Month in Arcadia or the USSA rifle match. You'll have a lot of fun and learn a bit about your abilities and your equipment, plus you can make fun of my DPMS barrel.

Of course it's the person behind that trigger that determines how effective a weapon is, and there are some local shooters around here that are more dangerous with Red Ryder BB guns than the average guy toting an AR-15.

First, I would imagine that if Kurt felt it necessary to toot his horn he would've done so. I would refer you to the points I hit on above about a minimum standard. Again, this is especially pertinent for somebody new to Stoner's system.

Second, from what I gather ATAS means "All Tactical And ****". Maybe it's just me but I prefer "All Functional And ****.

As for the matches it's been on the to-do list for a while. The 'practical' rifle matches would probably be more to my taste though.

Ek