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The Range
Rifle & Shotgun Discussion
High end AR’s, diminishing returns, and reliability.
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<blockquote data-quote="JEVapa" data-source="post: 4070768" data-attributes="member: 41176"><p>But I do have an answer, and it was at least more than a decade ago when he was building OBRs...which don't exist anymore.</p><p></p><p>Correct, no TX forges that I know of. Now, the only thing he doesn't make are the small parts...he even started making his own AR15 BCG's because of backburner waits for competitors. Not even carrying forged uppers any longer, it's all in-house machined...barrels too. He had to replace his CMs with his own manufacturing and has replaced most OEMs. That also increases prices too once everything starts getting vertically integrated but he can control almost 100% of quality and everything else.</p><p></p><p>Kinda in the same way, PSA has bought their CMs so now there's almost no wait time for Nodak spud and parts kits, and now they have "high end" parts, etc. They're more of a conglomerate though but not like "freedom arms".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you know how CMs work, they make stuff based on the customers specs, so like items will be significantly different in quality, finish, and performance from customer to customer. OEMs, not so much, they make the same thing for everybody. So saying that everybody's stuff is the same, isn't correct, at all. That's like saying school TP is the same as Charmin. </p><p></p><p>If six different companies have the same spec and use the same CM, then there's definitely some truth to that.</p><p></p><p>But, if three companies have the same spec and use the same CM (6061 coz it's cheap), and two companies pay for and have a better spec/set of requirements (7075 and hardcoat ano) and the same CM, and one company makes 80% in-house and uses high end components from CMs or OEMs, there will be a noticeable difference among the six companies.</p><p></p><p>But like I said before, most people will never see it because they either don't know or will never run their guns to their limits. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="👇" title="👇" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f447.png" /><img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="👇" title="👇" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f447.png" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most people shoot at 25ish yards and see that everything bunches up the same and call it good and think it's the same. Same at 100yds/meters with cheap ammo and that is their determining factor. If you buy 10 M4s from 10 different companies that follow the TDP and Gov spec, you are guaranteed 2-4 MOA guns. If your determining prerequisite for high-end/good enough is some kind of accuracy litmus, then you're missing the picture of what make a good gun good, and a cheap gun meh.</p><p></p><p>I guarantee [USER=6064]@KurtM[/USER] 's JP costs much more than a PSA and is worth every penny, not just for accuracy, but however many thousands and thousands of rounds on it (I'm conservatively guessing 50k+ at least, not counting barrel and BCG changes/maintenance). Just like my LT is worth every penny. Just like the Colt URGs I have that have 10k+ rounds on them and they still go like the energizer bunny.</p><p></p><p>But it is what it is and I know that your cheapAF PSA will not shoot better than my LTs or probably my WCs, and definitely won't shoot better than my MK12, unless you change barrels and stuff. Then it won't be cheap anymore.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JEVapa, post: 4070768, member: 41176"] But I do have an answer, and it was at least more than a decade ago when he was building OBRs...which don't exist anymore. Correct, no TX forges that I know of. Now, the only thing he doesn't make are the small parts...he even started making his own AR15 BCG's because of backburner waits for competitors. Not even carrying forged uppers any longer, it's all in-house machined...barrels too. He had to replace his CMs with his own manufacturing and has replaced most OEMs. That also increases prices too once everything starts getting vertically integrated but he can control almost 100% of quality and everything else. Kinda in the same way, PSA has bought their CMs so now there's almost no wait time for Nodak spud and parts kits, and now they have "high end" parts, etc. They're more of a conglomerate though but not like "freedom arms". If you know how CMs work, they make stuff based on the customers specs, so like items will be significantly different in quality, finish, and performance from customer to customer. OEMs, not so much, they make the same thing for everybody. So saying that everybody's stuff is the same, isn't correct, at all. That's like saying school TP is the same as Charmin. If six different companies have the same spec and use the same CM, then there's definitely some truth to that. But, if three companies have the same spec and use the same CM (6061 coz it's cheap), and two companies pay for and have a better spec/set of requirements (7075 and hardcoat ano) and the same CM, and one company makes 80% in-house and uses high end components from CMs or OEMs, there will be a noticeable difference among the six companies. But like I said before, most people will never see it because they either don't know or will never run their guns to their limits. 👇👇 Most people shoot at 25ish yards and see that everything bunches up the same and call it good and think it's the same. Same at 100yds/meters with cheap ammo and that is their determining factor. If you buy 10 M4s from 10 different companies that follow the TDP and Gov spec, you are guaranteed 2-4 MOA guns. If your determining prerequisite for high-end/good enough is some kind of accuracy litmus, then you're missing the picture of what make a good gun good, and a cheap gun meh. I guarantee [USER=6064]@KurtM[/USER] 's JP costs much more than a PSA and is worth every penny, not just for accuracy, but however many thousands and thousands of rounds on it (I'm conservatively guessing 50k+ at least, not counting barrel and BCG changes/maintenance). Just like my LT is worth every penny. Just like the Colt URGs I have that have 10k+ rounds on them and they still go like the energizer bunny. But it is what it is and I know that your cheapAF PSA will not shoot better than my LTs or probably my WCs, and definitely won't shoot better than my MK12, unless you change barrels and stuff. Then it won't be cheap anymore. [/QUOTE]
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