I had a run in with a CCW'er last night...

[Shoot Summ]

So by your logic he should have waited until this subject picked the gun up to begin his draw? that sounds like a good way for him to get dead

Might read the thread there cowboy, someone who I respect responded with the reasoning behind the escalation, I acknowledged it, and understand why.

 

[purplehaze]

Since the op was second on the scene she might very well have announced she was a CCW holder. The fact that she handed the stopping officer her CCW would seem to corroborate this. I may be wrong but, it seems the op said he couldn't exactly hear what was being said.

You were totally correct in your actions, naturally. ideally she should have announced aloud that she has a ccw and its in the glove box, next to where the insurance verification is.

but (and i am not trying to degrade your side, nor empower hers), i can see from her side too. she just got pulled over, chances are she know shes in trouble for speeding or whatever, we do not think clearly, so we follows orders, once she handed her ccw permit, her brain told her that problem was covered and immediately focused on getting the insurance which was the final part of her instruction. i see nothing odd about the placement of the insurance verification, i keep mine in the little owners manual in the glove box too, makes perfect sense to have it there, its always with the vehicle, and the book has a card holder for it... i can also see the glove box being a common place for the pistol. i personally do not keep mine there, but im sure many people do. just the way it went, i mean when you screw up and are in trouble, im sure you are flustered and forgetful too. i would certainly not say shes not suited to have a ccw, at least that this situation would prove shes not....

with that said, its no ones fault, the police do what they need to do, and rightly so; i think we have all seen at least one or two of those horrifying clips of camera footage of an officer pulling over a person for a routine traffic violation only to be shot dead with no warning, its a tough job and you have to always be on your game, i would not change a thing in your actions in this situation.

if anything could be done to have helped this been a more smooth stop, i suppose it would be education, to keep up and have maybe brought the idea to the for front of her mind that she should have announced that she had the pistol there to both police officers, instead of just letting the monkey brain take over and say "well now i gotta grab the insurance card, i hope i do not get a ticket". in fact i can guarantee that is exactly what was going on in her head, simply never thought twice that it was in there and was an issue after handing the permit to your partner; granted it certainly should have.

EDIT:
maybe this is a whole different can of worms to open up.. and i have put no legal thought or piratical thought to this so please do not hold me to it; but has anyone suggested incorporating asking if the person has a weapon on them, or a ccw permit when engaging in a traffic stop?


i mean i know we are required to inform them of it, but would it not make it more simple and give the officer more control of the stop by insuring a straight answer and motive, i mean if she said no i don't, and then you see the gun huge red flag. but had you been able to ask and she said yes, the next obvious question would have been where is it, "oh its in the glove box right next to my insurance" crisis adverted.

just seems like an obvious question anymore, with the growing masses of people getting ccws.

 

[waltham41]

gillman7 thank you for bringing this up, I cant say I blame you for your reaction. If I were walking past a car at a store and saw someone reach into their glove box as I walked by and a gun was where there hand was, I am sure my heart would be racing until I figured out their intention.

I have been stopped once since getting my CCW license... handed him my DL and CCW permit and sat still while he digested the situation. He was calm about it but I am sure he was more aware of his surroundings when he found out there was a weapon in the car. Being a long haired hippy with a beard probably didnt make him feel any better about the situation at first... we ended up shooting the bull for a few while he wrote a ticket and took a C note out of my wallet LOL

After seeing the LEO vid that went viral about the cop going postal on the guy that was legally carrying, its nice to hear of a stop that started out shaky and then ended up good. Kudos!

 

[KurtM]

Well to play Devils advocate here, MANY Western stated DON'T requier a decloration of CCW, BECAUSE it causes many problems between citizens both officer and public! ( note "officers of the law" ARE citizens and not at a higher level). While the young lady showed poor judgement about how she presented her insurance form, she was in compliance in her mind. Now let,s take this and make it New Mexico...,..Officer... do you have a gun in the car...girl...yes! ( and now she is THINKING...oh shouldn't do anything fast!!.....Um YES it is in the glove compartment! I HAVE a pernmit!!! Officer....OK don't do anything fast....ETC. BUT in this state...."I just showed the Officer my CCW and all is good"...because I am a good CITIZEN...JUST LIKE HIM! I can now access any and all identification or paper work he needs....... It is a simple mind set problem brought on by a State government that doesn't trust it's CITIZENS to do the right thing, and doesn't let any discression enter into how we react. I would propose that the "must disclose" clause has caused MANY more problems than it has ever solveed! Kurt Miller

 

[Michael Brown]

Some officers got a call of a man pointing a firearm during a disturbance last night.

When the officers got there the man described as the subject with the gun tried to walk away. When they stopped him and stated they were going to pat him down for weapons, he responded by yelling "You ain't patting down s**t!" and when the officers attempted to pat him down he pulled away and had to be pepper-sprayed and taken to the ground.

It turns out he was a CCW holder and legally armed.

HOWEVER his behavior turned him from the likely victim into a suspect.

The facts of the incident did seem to indicate that he MIGHT have been the victim although both sides of the disturbance obviously claimed the other was the aggressor.

So now instead of being a lawfully armed victim, this individual will be a criminal defendant based solely on his response to the officers at the scene and likely lose his CCW permit.

The bottom line is that when the police arrive, do nothing rash, do exactly as you're told, remain calm and if you don't like how the police treat you, deal with it later not at the scene.

It doesn't mean the police are right or wrong, but the incorrect response to the police can turn you into a criminal very quickly.

Train to do things properly and remain calm.

Michael Brown

 

[Liv2Dive2]

I had a similar experience last week I'd like to share... First the background...It was a weekend night, about 0100 hrs, got behind a late model 4 door Lexus, occupied by two individuals, driver was a large male, passenger was an unknown (turned out it was a woman, but she had her hair pulled back in a tight ponytail so I couldn't tell from the rear) stop was for a tag light, no big deal, was on a major 4 lane divided road, initiated the stop, approached on the passenger side alone as I didn't have a cover officer there as we ride solo, (I try to always approach on the passenger side to the max extent possible as it gives me a better view of the vehicle, tends to throw the folks in the car off, and is much harder for them to shoot at me if they choose to do so)

On my approach I've got my light out, thumb print on the rear of the car, scan the back seat before I make contact. Everything looks ok so I stay behind the pillar and make contact...the passenger is very unimpressed and clearly has an attitude. I ask for drivers info, he doesn't have his license but does know is DL number, I take that down, and for the registration and insurance, (normally I ask where the paperwork is located, and if there's anything in that area I need to be aware of) I didn't this time...passenger states it's her car and opens the glove box...

Now is where it gets interesting...inside the glove box is a holstered Bersa 380...she hasn't told me about it, and in SC it's legal for her to have it there...she does have a CWP, but doesn't have to notify me of if as it's not on her person...I immediately tell her to stop and not to reach into the glove box...she stops...I didn't pull my weapon, I maintained control through a strong command presence and voice commands, now I had my hand on my weapon, but I don't think it was necessary to draw it at that point...as soon as she stopped moving I told her I was going to secure the weapon until the stop was over...she complied and I reached in took the weapon and placed it on the roof out of both of their reach, while keeping a very close eye on both occupants...

Turns out she's an attorney...not a very bright one...but an attorney none the less. Now, like I said she had a CWP, and was doing nothing wrong but common sense should have told her to notify me of the pistol, but I think pulling my weapon in my case would have been excessive, for a couple of reasons...the first is that the weapon was in a holster with a snap...so she could not have quickly engaged me, second she complied immediately with my verbal commands, had she kept moving towards the gun and ignored my verbal commands the situation could have changed very quickly or if the gun was upholstered that would change things...

I've been an LEO for a few years now, so I understand our mentality. I don't know all the facts of the other officers experience, such as body language and other non verbal’s, type of car, location of stop, time of day or night, current intel, and whether the weapon was in a holster with any type of retention. All of those would play into how I would handle the situation...given the limited info we have about this stop if the weapon was in a holster with any type of retention I would say he may have over reacted...but maybe not depending on the totality of the circumstances.

Bottom line is, as a CWP holder you need to be smart...always be very courteous of LEOs, a smile will help, realize if they pulled you over there is probably a reason, also recognize they do not know you, and if they've been at it for a while they will be suspicious of everyone...it's how we stay alive so don't play into that...don't make fast or furtive movements, keep your hands on the steering wheel and be honest...My lawyer friend should have said "Officer I have my Bersa 380 in the glove box in a holster, how do you want me to proceed" and then waited for direction.

Just my .02

 

[Liv2Dive2]

Some officers got a call of a man pointing a firearm during a disturbance last night.

When the officers got there the man described as the subject with the gun tried to walk away. When they stopped him and stated they were going to pat him down for weapons, he responded by yelling "You ain't patting down s**t!" and when the officers attempted to pat him down he pulled away and had to be pepper-sprayed and taken to the ground.

It turns out he was a CCW holder and legally armed.

HOWEVER his behavior turned him from the likely victim into a suspect.

The facts of the incident did seem to indicate that he MIGHT have been the victim although both sides of the disturbance obviously claimed the other was the aggressor.

So now instead of being a lawfully armed victim, this individual will be a criminal defendant based solely on his response to the officers at the scene and likely lose his CCW permit.

The bottom line is that when the police arrive, do nothing rash, do exactly as you're told, remain calm and if you don't like how the police treat you, deal with it later not at the scene.

It doesn't mean the police are right or wrong, but the incorrect response to the police can turn you into a criminal very quickly.

Train to do things properly and remain calm.

Michael Brown

That CWP holder acted very badly...he's lucky...people need to realize there are often other things going on in the background that they are unaware of...when a police officer makes contact with them..it may be like in this instance you may fit the description of some very dangerous criminal just like this situation...if you get an attitude it only makes your situation worse...be courteous, smile, and don't presume that because you're innocent we know you're innocent.

 

[english kanigit]

Turns out she's an attorney...not a very bright one...but an attorney none the less.

EK

 

[twoguns?]

Donnie Baker says ,when you get pulled over by the cops, and he probably knows more about getting pulled over by the cops than anyone he knows, you should make a sudden lunge for the glove box , the cops will apreciate it ,due to the fact they are probably in a hurry to get to the donut shop. Swear to god, he said so on one of his tapes.

 

[Comte DeLoach]

So you over reacted due to your not having good communications with your partner, and your now playing it off like she was in the wrong.....

Thats messed up on your part...