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<blockquote data-quote="TheDoubleD" data-source="post: 4308450" data-attributes="member: 43754"><p>I have been loading and shooting Martini's for over 20 years. I have used Martini's for hunting and Target shooting with the Victoria Riflemen of the <a href="https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/" target="_blank">https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/</a> . I know the Martini system very well.</p><p></p><p>Lets start by stating with these guns the devil is in the details. There are many different Martini's forms. I could write for a week about that, but referencing the OP's gun there is no such thing as a MK 4. There is a distinct difference between 4 and IV. They sound alike but are spelled different.</p><p></p><p>This may seem a petty point but during the war in Afghanistan the Khyber Pass firearms industry was watching the Martini discussions boards. When we pointed out a feature to ID a counterfeit gun, the Khyber Pass guys changed it. When we ID'd a rare or uncommon feature they copied it.</p><p></p><p>So where I am going with this is, if you say you gun is MK 4, knowledgeable buys will think you are trying to sell a Khyber Pass counterfeit. Value top $400. You would have a hard time selling it.</p><p></p><p>Look at the gun and see if it says Mk IV on it. When you describe it, when you try to sell it, say what it says, not what it sounds like. This is antique gun, not a modern used gun. Features and details are important.</p><p></p><p>In the Mark IV guns there are three different patterns. There are two books on Martini Henry's specifically. The two authors Identify these three patterns-differently. </p><p></p><p>When you try to sell you gun you need pictures. Good sharp clear close pictures. So the discerning collector can id the pattern.</p><p></p><p>You need one picture straight on sideways showing gun full length. </p><p></p><p>Take one of any markings on the barrel near the breech and one of the markings on the right side of the action. These need to be clear sharp close pictures.</p><p></p><p>You need a picture of the Nocks form. The nock's form is the flat sided area of the breech end of the barrel where it screws into the barrel. The shape and size of this is one the indicators of what pattern the gun is. </p><p></p><p>Take a picture of the rear sight and its markings. The counterfeiters have real problems numbers on these sights. Some argue that the rear sight has some bearing in which pattern the gun is. </p><p></p><p>Front sights. Good sharp clear close side one and top down of the front sight. This is one of the big indicators of pattern.</p><p></p><p>I suggest you post your pictures on the Martini forum and get this gun correctly identified. You can say you need it identified so you can sell it on. <a href="https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/martini-henry-forum-f1/" target="_blank">https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/martini-henry-forum-f1/</a> Certian patterns </p><p></p><p>Say in your post once you have it identified you will list it in the Yard sale forum Be sure to read the rules before posting in Yard Sale.. <a href="https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/the-yard-sale-f20/" target="_blank">https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/the-yard-sale-f20/</a> . Don't be surprised if you get inquiry before selling, or no inquiry at all.</p><p></p><p>Once you have it correctly ID"d, use that corrected pattern ID in you Gunbroker ad.</p><p></p><p>I feel $700-to $900 is not unrealistic for a Mk IV. </p><p></p><p>Okay now comments on what others have posted.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I use to say using an adapter in the Martini was like kissing your sister or showering wearing a raincoat while showering. It's just not real. </p><p></p><p>As get older I have become kinder and gentler-(but nobody has called me nice. <img src="/images/smilies/smile.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-shortname=":)" /> )</p><p></p><p>The Martini was created in the early days of the breech loading rifle. Martini Cartridges had a steel head and brass foil body. They were more akin to a shotgun shell, than the modern brass cartridge. The also were made before the age of standardization. The only part of the Martini chamber that is uniform is the head and mouth. Shoulder length and diameter are variable. The shoulder its self is an ogive, also with varying radius.</p><p></p><p>Eley and Kynoch standardized the dimensions in early 1900's, 25-30 years after most Martini's were made. CIP standardize the chamber in the 1970's. 100 years after most Martini's were made. </p><p></p><p>The problem with standardization is that the dimensions are for solid brass cartridges, not foil cases.</p><p></p><p>RCBS made their high dollar, top quality customs dies to CIP standards and brass formed in the dies will fit 60%-70% of Martini chambers. About 20 years ago Lee and CH-4D were talked into making a smaller body sizing die. Brass formed in the Lee and special CH4D dies will fit 99.9% of Martini chambers.</p><p></p><p>So the adapter guys saw a potential market. They started making chamber adapters. Two problems. First they made the adapter to CIP specs. The Adapter would stick in the chamber at the shoulder. Over the years when I still did gunsmithing I have extracted a number of these stuck adapters. It been a while since I have seen or heard of one sticking. I suspect the adapter makes wised up and made a tighter adapter to accommodate the varying dimension of the Martini chamber.</p><p></p><p> The other problem is at the other end of the adapter. The bore of the Martini is tapered Henry rifled. The throat diameter of the Martin Henry chamber is .468 to .472 diameter. The throat tapers for 8 inches from the breech before it gets to the cylindrical bore. The henry rifling at the cylinder bore is .450, the groove is .464.</p><p></p><p>I could write for day about the issues with this. All I will say is that is complicated and no where as simple as i wrote. I shoot a .468 and .472 bullet grease groove bullet in my rifles.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Yep, lucky. </p><p></p><p>Ahall writes with knowledge.</p><p></p><p>Read what he writes. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Well said, very well said. Sounds nicer than what I said about kissing your sister.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well I wouldn't say they disagree, more that they do it different. The English use bore measurements. We tend use groove measurements. A study of the Henty rifling will make your head spin. Tapered long bore-throat, flats and peaks with major and minor diameters. Center of flats same diameter as the peaks. Corners of flat larger than flats. FWIW Henry rifling is known to work better with hard bullets. The LoC bullet has the same hardness as wheel weight. So, do you cast a soft bullet the same size as the minor diameter, same as the bore-.450 and allow obturation in that 8 inch tapered throat to seal the bore? Read Dr. Mann's the Flight of the Bullet for discussion on that. Or do you use a hard bullet throat diameter that is swage from .467-.472 throat diameter to .464 major dimeter/.450 minor diameter passing up the 8 inch taper bore to the cylinder sectionon firing? I have been using .468 wheel weight grease bullets for years with good results. (Good results in a MH are different than good results in a Remington 700 VLS)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely perfect advice from Ahall.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Get Lee dies. They are made to resize brass to fit the non standard Martini chamber. You need a press with a removeable top insert to fit the larger dies. </p><p></p><p>You can indeed form .577/.450 Martini brass from 24 gauge Mag shotgun brass. I have done it. I had a set of form dies. It's frustrating. You are money ahead to buy direct form Martyn at X-ring services. <a href="https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/577-450-m-h-and-577-snider-unprimed-cases-t16005.html" target="_blank">https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/577-450-m-h-and-577-snider-unprimed-cases-t16005.html</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This first of all is a blackpowder cartridge. There is a safe way to load smokeless. It is an advanced technique. I am not going to go into it here. I have already typed to much. But can be safely done. You can also use the blackpowder substitutes, but they have their issues also.</p><p></p><p>The basic starting load for the Martini is 80 grains of FG powder, and a 480 grain lead bullet. The original load used a paper patch bullet of 1-12 hardness. You can use a grease groove bullet also. </p><p></p><p>80 grains will leave an airspace in the cartridge. Some say that airspace is a myth or old wives tale. It is not. It is definitely a serious concern. However there is more to it than just that. The airspace must be in the form of a cylinder. Paul Vielle discovered while developing smokeless powder that an air space in the form of a cylinder will set up a pressure wave that impacts at one end of the cylinder-bullet base and causes problem when the charge is fired. Another subject for a long an interesting discussion.</p><p></p><p>The practice is to use some sort of filler. The British used sheep's wool. In more modern times the practice is to use sheep's wool, kapok, dacron, and foam filler rod. Cereal grains such as cream of wheat or shotgun filler shoulder should be avoided as they are incompressible solids. The Martini case is is a bottle neck and the filler in the .577 diameter powder chamber is forced-extruded out the .470 diameter neck when fired. It stretches necks. It also raises pressure a bit.</p><p></p><p>Current practice for many is to use 5/16" foam filler rod inserted in the case and slightly compressed about .100.</p><p></p><p>Compressed load. Black powder sometimes works better in straight cases if it is slightly compressed. It is difficult to compress a load in a .577 diameter cartridge chamber through a .470 diameter case neck. With filler rods there is some compression.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Boy is Ahall right. </p><p></p><p>Except for the reforming Mag tech brass this a very interesting hobby. I gave that up years ago. If i need brass I buy it from Martyn at X-ring Services.</p><p></p><p>If you have an interest in the Martini I invite you <a href="https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/" target="_blank">https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>AHall, are you going to Springtown in September?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TheDoubleD, post: 4308450, member: 43754"] I have been loading and shooting Martini's for over 20 years. I have used Martini's for hunting and Target shooting with the Victoria Riflemen of the [URL]https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/[/URL] . I know the Martini system very well. Lets start by stating with these guns the devil is in the details. There are many different Martini's forms. I could write for a week about that, but referencing the OP's gun there is no such thing as a MK 4. There is a distinct difference between 4 and IV. They sound alike but are spelled different. This may seem a petty point but during the war in Afghanistan the Khyber Pass firearms industry was watching the Martini discussions boards. When we pointed out a feature to ID a counterfeit gun, the Khyber Pass guys changed it. When we ID'd a rare or uncommon feature they copied it. So where I am going with this is, if you say you gun is MK 4, knowledgeable buys will think you are trying to sell a Khyber Pass counterfeit. Value top $400. You would have a hard time selling it. Look at the gun and see if it says Mk IV on it. When you describe it, when you try to sell it, say what it says, not what it sounds like. This is antique gun, not a modern used gun. Features and details are important. In the Mark IV guns there are three different patterns. There are two books on Martini Henry's specifically. The two authors Identify these three patterns-differently. When you try to sell you gun you need pictures. Good sharp clear close pictures. So the discerning collector can id the pattern. You need one picture straight on sideways showing gun full length. Take one of any markings on the barrel near the breech and one of the markings on the right side of the action. These need to be clear sharp close pictures. You need a picture of the Nocks form. The nock's form is the flat sided area of the breech end of the barrel where it screws into the barrel. The shape and size of this is one the indicators of what pattern the gun is. Take a picture of the rear sight and its markings. The counterfeiters have real problems numbers on these sights. Some argue that the rear sight has some bearing in which pattern the gun is. Front sights. Good sharp clear close side one and top down of the front sight. This is one of the big indicators of pattern. I suggest you post your pictures on the Martini forum and get this gun correctly identified. You can say you need it identified so you can sell it on. [URL]https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/martini-henry-forum-f1/[/URL] Certian patterns Say in your post once you have it identified you will list it in the Yard sale forum Be sure to read the rules before posting in Yard Sale.. [URL]https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/the-yard-sale-f20/[/URL] . Don't be surprised if you get inquiry before selling, or no inquiry at all. Once you have it correctly ID"d, use that corrected pattern ID in you Gunbroker ad. I feel $700-to $900 is not unrealistic for a Mk IV. Okay now comments on what others have posted. I use to say using an adapter in the Martini was like kissing your sister or showering wearing a raincoat while showering. It's just not real. As get older I have become kinder and gentler-(but nobody has called me nice. :) ) The Martini was created in the early days of the breech loading rifle. Martini Cartridges had a steel head and brass foil body. They were more akin to a shotgun shell, than the modern brass cartridge. The also were made before the age of standardization. The only part of the Martini chamber that is uniform is the head and mouth. Shoulder length and diameter are variable. The shoulder its self is an ogive, also with varying radius. Eley and Kynoch standardized the dimensions in early 1900's, 25-30 years after most Martini's were made. CIP standardize the chamber in the 1970's. 100 years after most Martini's were made. The problem with standardization is that the dimensions are for solid brass cartridges, not foil cases. RCBS made their high dollar, top quality customs dies to CIP standards and brass formed in the dies will fit 60%-70% of Martini chambers. About 20 years ago Lee and CH-4D were talked into making a smaller body sizing die. Brass formed in the Lee and special CH4D dies will fit 99.9% of Martini chambers. So the adapter guys saw a potential market. They started making chamber adapters. Two problems. First they made the adapter to CIP specs. The Adapter would stick in the chamber at the shoulder. Over the years when I still did gunsmithing I have extracted a number of these stuck adapters. It been a while since I have seen or heard of one sticking. I suspect the adapter makes wised up and made a tighter adapter to accommodate the varying dimension of the Martini chamber. The other problem is at the other end of the adapter. The bore of the Martini is tapered Henry rifled. The throat diameter of the Martin Henry chamber is .468 to .472 diameter. The throat tapers for 8 inches from the breech before it gets to the cylindrical bore. The henry rifling at the cylinder bore is .450, the groove is .464. I could write for day about the issues with this. All I will say is that is complicated and no where as simple as i wrote. I shoot a .468 and .472 bullet grease groove bullet in my rifles. Yep, lucky. Ahall writes with knowledge. Read what he writes. Well said, very well said. Sounds nicer than what I said about kissing your sister. Well I wouldn't say they disagree, more that they do it different. The English use bore measurements. We tend use groove measurements. A study of the Henty rifling will make your head spin. Tapered long bore-throat, flats and peaks with major and minor diameters. Center of flats same diameter as the peaks. Corners of flat larger than flats. FWIW Henry rifling is known to work better with hard bullets. The LoC bullet has the same hardness as wheel weight. So, do you cast a soft bullet the same size as the minor diameter, same as the bore-.450 and allow obturation in that 8 inch tapered throat to seal the bore? Read Dr. Mann's the Flight of the Bullet for discussion on that. Or do you use a hard bullet throat diameter that is swage from .467-.472 throat diameter to .464 major dimeter/.450 minor diameter passing up the 8 inch taper bore to the cylinder sectionon firing? I have been using .468 wheel weight grease bullets for years with good results. (Good results in a MH are different than good results in a Remington 700 VLS) Absolutely perfect advice from Ahall. Get Lee dies. They are made to resize brass to fit the non standard Martini chamber. You need a press with a removeable top insert to fit the larger dies. You can indeed form .577/.450 Martini brass from 24 gauge Mag shotgun brass. I have done it. I had a set of form dies. It's frustrating. You are money ahead to buy direct form Martyn at X-ring services. [URL]https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/577-450-m-h-and-577-snider-unprimed-cases-t16005.html[/URL] This first of all is a blackpowder cartridge. There is a safe way to load smokeless. It is an advanced technique. I am not going to go into it here. I have already typed to much. But can be safely done. You can also use the blackpowder substitutes, but they have their issues also. The basic starting load for the Martini is 80 grains of FG powder, and a 480 grain lead bullet. The original load used a paper patch bullet of 1-12 hardness. You can use a grease groove bullet also. 80 grains will leave an airspace in the cartridge. Some say that airspace is a myth or old wives tale. It is not. It is definitely a serious concern. However there is more to it than just that. The airspace must be in the form of a cylinder. Paul Vielle discovered while developing smokeless powder that an air space in the form of a cylinder will set up a pressure wave that impacts at one end of the cylinder-bullet base and causes problem when the charge is fired. Another subject for a long an interesting discussion. The practice is to use some sort of filler. The British used sheep's wool. In more modern times the practice is to use sheep's wool, kapok, dacron, and foam filler rod. Cereal grains such as cream of wheat or shotgun filler shoulder should be avoided as they are incompressible solids. The Martini case is is a bottle neck and the filler in the .577 diameter powder chamber is forced-extruded out the .470 diameter neck when fired. It stretches necks. It also raises pressure a bit. Current practice for many is to use 5/16" foam filler rod inserted in the case and slightly compressed about .100. Compressed load. Black powder sometimes works better in straight cases if it is slightly compressed. It is difficult to compress a load in a .577 diameter cartridge chamber through a .470 diameter case neck. With filler rods there is some compression. Boy is Ahall right. Except for the reforming Mag tech brass this a very interesting hobby. I gave that up years ago. If i need brass I buy it from Martyn at X-ring Services. If you have an interest in the Martini I invite you [URL]https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/[/URL] AHall, are you going to Springtown in September? [/QUOTE]
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