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Message: <blockquote data-quote="joegrizzy" data-source="post: 3903381" data-attributes="member: 45524">PCCs make a ton of sense imo and are more than just a niche. i'm going to go ahead and include uh....."long pistols" or whatever the name for....pistol caliber....uh pistols would be (a PCC with a short barrel and brace), which imo makes the platform.imo there's some overlap with pdw when it comes to the "long pistols", but they are superior in lots of ways to a short rifle.anyone who has a short barreled ar in literally any caliber knows how loud they bark compared to a 16'' or a 20'' ar. but a direct blowback ar style pcc can be 4'' or 5'' and the gas is about the same as any other blowback pistol design. less noise, less gas, less blast, less flash, less everything. in every measurable way, a short PCC is just less severe to fire than a short rifle.the extra point of contact is make or break. you can be really good with a pistol, but you can be almost literally braindead and be effective with something on your shoulder and cheek. it's just more stable period. you're going to able to get more controlled shots off in a quicker time than a handgun. you can drill over and over and over and over with a pistol vs a pcc and the pcc is going to win almost every time for almost every person for almost every skill level just due to the inherently more stable platform.there is something to be said about a handgun in a chassis, but that just becomes a pdw and/or pcc at that point anyway, so i feel that argument is moot.of those i've fired/own:sub2k: cheap, utilitarian, effective, light. at this point they all take glock mags, but this before most. mounting optics is a bit odd due to fold, but there are plenty of options. more accurate than you expect (that's going to be true of every carbine) to my knowledge, does not offer a "braced pistol" version. if shooting suppressed, will be a longer package, even folded. 4lbs, is absolutely the lightest full length carbine, so if you want the longer barrel for pissin hot loads (which i don't think kel tec recommends +p loads) this is the lightest option.ruger pc: essentially all the above but in a nicer package. you can get take down models or pistol models or even take down pistol models. tons of customization and aftermarket options to trick out anyway you want. the price point can be deceiving as if you get one "cheap" it's like a base model that you will spend more in aftermarket parts. (not that this is a bad thing, but while you can get these for not much more than a sub2k, you'll spend way more on this. trust me). can get a small package for suppressed shooting, very easy to still use indoors and vehicles even with can. 7 lbs for the carbine, 5.2 lbs it says for the pc charger pistol. less recoil than an ar style pcc imo.ar style: i know you said no ar style but dang man.....ar pcc's are pretty dang sweet. i've got 9mm and .45 and love 'em both. subs work well, i'm left handed so i can have a forward charger handle (no gas tube on direct blowback ar pcc's) which really makes that ar platform....i mean....ya can't really beat it.... goes without saying you can obviously make an ar pcc into whatever you want. most of the fm/psa/fancy sig ar pcc's braced long pistols or whatever the hell they are called are 4-5 lbs.akv: now we're getting to the badasses. anything down here is gonna be heavy. like...twice the weight or more of the others mentioned so far. so, realistically, even if small size, the weight is still twice as much. that being said, there is absolutely no recoil to a 9mm ak, it's basically like shooting .22. even a 9mm ar hits a *bit* harder than you might expect, mainly because the blowback. some people like robski i think says don't use recoil buffers on your aks, but i have one both the akv and kp9 and i think if nothing else they make everything a bit quieter and maybe my brain interprets that as less recoil. it's like 10 lbs. they say 7 and half online, but i don't think so. i'll get my scale lol.the akv honestly has quite a few features on that kp9, like an improved mag release, bolt hold open AND bolt release (ar style essentially, so familiar controls), and suppresses incredibly well. it takes Scorpion mags which are cheap, especially the ones that PSA themselves make that hold 35 rounds. takes ak parts, the stubby monolithic bolts looks cool, 9mm ak's are great.that being said, for whatever reason i do prefer the:kp9: it's the beezneez, what else can you say? i dunno, something about, it has everything the akv has except the "improved" features, but i'm left handed so the ak platform works for me just the way it is. love this one, but also heavy. price point has come down a bit (for instance, you can get this for the price you'll pay for the ruger pc and a few aftermarkets, which you WILL get) and the mags have come down a TON. they are just about the price of the scorpion mags now. the kp9 is listed on kusa's website as **12** lbs and i firmly believe it. so yeah absolutely no way the akv is like under 8 it feels heavier than the kp9.scorpion: i've never shot the latest gen pistol model of this one, but a buddy had the gen 2 pcc and left it in my care for a while. i really liked it, didn't have a ton of range time to get super acquainted, but there's everything you could want from a pcc. ~2 lbs heavier than an ar pcc (pistol model i'm sure is much lighter) but ***5*** lbs lighter than an akv/kp9 lol.ap5/ap5-p: i don't have hk 'cause i ain't paying hk prices, but turHK does just as fine for me lol. none of the others on this list are roller delayed, and it makes a difference. as much as there's no recoil on the akv/kp9, those are like....actual guns that still feel big. they are big. a braced mp5k is....not big. not at all. still a bit heavy, but you got no problems moving that guy around in any kind of space: stairs, corners, hallways, vehicles, you could legit be in your crawlspace about to come thru the floor like Arnold in Eraser and you ain't snagging on nothing. it's THE PCC and for the price point they are at now (you can get a base model, no brace for $1k and the folding braced models are going for ~$1,200) it's almost a no brainer imo. comes with tri lug and threads (threads before tri lug, so if using threaded can other than the protector nothing to unscrew/untorque.) accessories are going to be the most expensive, the trigger sucks compared to literally everything else listed but it's also superior in every other way. half the weight of 9mm ak, a lb or two heavier than a bare ar pistol, a lb or two lighter than a scorpion/ruger pc carbine.ones i haven't fired/own:vector: more expensive than an ap5, but also such an iconic cool gun. most people say the fancy recoil system doesn't do anything in semi-auto, i dunno ain't never fired one. but i bet they are awesome and i would go for the pistol version every time. but they are going to the most expensive thing listed that wouldn't be a legit hk sp5.extar ep9: you said no ar styles, but man i've heard these things rock. cheap, reliable, small, lightweight, easy to accessorize, it checks every box really. i don't think they are really that ugly, unlike....hi point carbine: it's the shark. having a gen one was appealing to me at one point, but after getting other carbines i don't know if i will. if i wanted a 10mm carbine i would without a doubt get this. i've heard nothing but good things about them from anyone that owns one; which is important because most people that talk trash on things don't own them and never even handled one.Stribog: this is the only other roller delayed on the list, and having no experience with one not much to say other than that. again, for the price of the ap5's now, hard to not spend a few hundred more (not sure what the stribog is going for, but pretty sure it's $700-$800) and getting an ap5. but this is certainly more modern and if you want pic rails and gadgets, this is your guy. i've heard some mixed things, but never really looked into them that much. they seem like great guns.whatever else i forgot: they are great because PCC's are great.</blockquote>

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