Post Your Training Experiences: Read the Rules Before Posting

[Michael Brown]

At the request of a couple members I am posting this sticky as an opportunity for members to discuss their training experiences.

I would like to confine this thread to trainers that either:

1) Are based in Oklahoma

2) Visit Oklahoma on a regular basis (i.e. Tom Givens, John Farnam)

Any others please start a different thread.

The rules will be:

1) Post only your own direct experiences. No rumors or second hand stories.

2) Post only factual information. If you post something that can be proven to be false and/or malicious, your ability to post in the Training and Self-Defense forums will be restricted.

3) You may offer constructive criticism regarding a training experience but you must provide examples. No drive-by sound bites or one-liners. This thread will only be for intelligent discussion.

Enjoy.

Michael Brown

 

[tacmedic]

Okay I guess I'll go first but most of you who read any of my post can guess what I'm gonna say.

To qualify my opinion here's a little background about me so you'll know I'm not totally full of BS. Been shooting all my life, no really I drew down on that sorry doctor who tried to spank me after I was born. ha ha No really I spent 10 year in the Army both active and reserve. Nine of it was in Special Forces first as a commo guy then as a medic and finally as a medic instructor at one of our clinical proficiency sites (Gallup IHS Hospital). Special Forces medics, SEAL corpmen, and Air Force Pararescumen all attend all or some portion of the 18 Delta course (Special Operations Medic Course) at Ft. Bragg. Gallup was the premier clinical training site in its day and we often had Dev Group and Operation Detachment Delta guys come out and bone up their medical skills while ramping up for a deployment. The Colonel who was the OIC at Gallup loved to shoot and I had the opportunity to shoot with these guys quite often during that time. While there I also volunteered as a reserve sheriff's deputy and medic for the SWAT team. Now I'm not claiming to be a great shooter I'm just telling you what experiences I have had to compare the guys I'm rating here against.

The Defensive Shooting Academy of Tulsa (TDSA)
Marshall Luton has one of the most impressive schools I have ever been too. He is an incredible shooter but is an even more gifted instructor. His enthusiasm and love of shooting is contagious. Hell, he'd have Diane Fienstein (sp?) converted to a gun enthusiest if she ever took one of his classes. Marshall has matured enough as a shooter and instructor that he clearly has no ego issues and nothing to prove while on the range. This means when you take his classes his focus is about you and your performance. He never claims to be the best or know it all and he has put together a brilliant group of instructors who's talents are in some ways superior to his own which he will readily tell you. Eric Fuson, Eric Stacy, Shane Richards, Curt Nichols, Billy Smith, Travis Foster, Pat Harker, and Vince O'neill are amazing. They continually work to improve themselves and their courses never ceasing to be dynamic and open minded in their approach. They got both my wife and daughter shooting to a level where they could ace any military or law enforcement course. I highly recommend taking any of their classes!

The Praesidium Group
When I asked Marshall where to find realistic and workable weapons retention training for my wife to carry concealed safely he went above and beyond by not only recommending training with Mike Brown and Brandon Bennett of The Praesidium Group he hosted one of their CQT (Close Quaters Tactics) courses this May. Not only did we learn weapons retention skills we learned tactics, edged weapons skills, psychological tools, the nature and contexts of criminal assaults, weapons access and use at extreme close range, night fire and flashlight techniques, as well as how we would be able to perform in a real situation through stress innoculation with live simmunitions training. This class was so awesome my wife insisted we join their monthly training group, to include our daughter, and to take the course again. I agree completely!!!

Looking over my past military and law enforcement training I am both dumbfounded and a little disturbed that none of this was incorperated into it. Major advancements are occuring in training and its because of dedicated experienced professionals like those above who are pioneering the way, challanging old ideas, and putting it to the test by suiting up and going at it 110% to see if it will really work or not.

I cannot give a strong enough recommendation for these guys. I served with some of the finest professional soldiers in the world, where the saying we had of 'you got my back and I got yours,' wasn't ever taken lightly. Thanks to TDSA and The Praesidium Group I am telling you now I'd go anywhere confidently knowing my wife had my back.

 

[38Super]

Will ditto what Tacmedic says about TDSA Tulsa. Have taken one class from Marshall and the gang there. Brian Hill, Curt Nichols and Pat Harker and the rest of them really want you to learn. Wonderful experience and came away with a better understanding of my gun and what proper training can do for you.

Have also had the opportunity of taking a one day class with Matt Mclearn(now with the US Shooting Academy in Tulsa) and also took a one day class from the late Steve Broom. Both of these classes were geared more towards competitive shooting.

If you have the opportunity to take a class from TDSA or Matt, JUMP AT IT.

What I have learned, may not always show at a match, but what matters is that you do learn something and enjoy our sport more.

Have not had the opportunity to take a class from Mike Brown yet but it is in the future plans.

 

[Kiyot]

I'd really like to hear something about the training classes that they have at H&H or maybe somewhere else here in OKC. The ones I see at TDSA or by MB are 2 day classes while H&H's are only 4 hours, but there are 5 levels of courses there which may end up equalling that of the 2 day courses after all is said and done. Thanks!

 

[XRF]

I have taken TDSAs AP Level 1 twice. Outstanding course with outstanding instructors. I have attended C.L.E.E.Ts firearms training for reserve officers and it is the only "training" I can compare to Marshall's product. TDSA got me off high center and made me a better than average shooter. Marshall will be the first to tell you that what he teaches is a "a way" not "the way". You can take it if it works and leave it if it doesn't. A great teaching attitude. Well worth the time and money. He has the gift of teaching.

 

[SoonerBJJ]

I am an Okie currently transplanted in Texas. I have trained with multiple out-of-state schools but one of the best I've worked with happens to be coming to Oklahoma in January 2007.

I took Combative Pistol 2 with Tom Givens of Rangemaster in April 2006. It was possibly the most well-rounded course I've taken and was an awesome experience. Tom gives very good talks on mindset and personal tactics as they apply to a defensive context. His block on the Miami FBI and North Hollywood shootouts is a unique offering that is a complete eye-opener.

About 80% of the 20 hours is spent on the range and covers a vast amount of content from basic marksmanship to movement drills, weak/strong hand and injury drills, longer distance shooting, barricade work and much more. He throws in an occasional competitive angle that is fun while applying a little bit of pressure. There is also a low-light shooting session on the first night that introduces the various techniques commonly used and offers the opportunity to experiment to find what is most useful. Tom's take will bust some commonly-held misconceptions about low light shooting.

This isn't much of an AAR but I thought so much of this course that I'll be trying to make it to Hinton to repeat it when Tom comes to Oklahoma.

 

[tacmedic]

THIS IS A COPY OF MY POSTING ON TDSA's SITE:

This weekend my wife and I attended TDSA's urban rifle course for the first time and I am still buzzing from the adrenaline...wide eye, slack jawed, and absolutely dumbfounded at how much we learned and how much we improved in our skills with a rifle. The instructors at TDSA are AMAZING!!!

My wife had never fired an M4/AR before. Now she can make ALL her hits from any range or position of her choosing to gain the tactical advantage. Standing, kneeling, prone, modified prone, scuba prone, right or left handed doesn't matter she'll nail you. I am so incredibly proud of her.

They had me shooting better with my left (formerly untrained side) than I could with my right side before taking this course. In one weekend they taught me more about manipulating and employing my rifle than I learned in 10 years of military experience (9 of them in Special Operations) and two years as a reserve deputy and SWAT Paramedic. NO LIE!

Every student out there got personal one on one teaching from all five of the instructors who were able to immediately diagnose and correct any errors made by the students. Each student was also pushed to their personal limits and well beyond. Students were never compared or contrasted against one another and instructors were generous with praise for a job well done. The excitement for their student's growth and improvement was genuine and their attitude and professionalism was absolutely contagious. This caused the students to rapidly form a very positive cohesive bond. It was incredible to watch, if one student yelled RED he was immediately covered by another student and usually more than one without any prompting by instructors. Students coached, supported, and praised each other even offering constructive criticism without anyone ever feeling embarrassed or ashamed. I have seen groups who have trained together for years who were not so supportive of each other.


Safety was the number one priority and out of such a large group of shooters there was not a single safety violation. Because of the atmosphere the instructors created and out the students respect for the instructors and one another there was never a single solitary second of lax muzzle discipline.

As TDSA joins with USSA I am both excited for the future and a little sad to see TDSA as I have come to know it go away. But I will tell you this, I don't care what name they go by or the specifics of their geographical location my family and I will continue to train with Marshall, Eric, Billy, Patty, and Travis so long as they are willing to teach.

USSA, you’re getting one hell of a group of instructors who are gifted shooters, gifted teachers, talented and motivational leaders, as well as moral role models. Our indebtedness, respect, trust, and loyalty lies with each of them individually and not to any organization or affiliation.

With our utmost gratitude,

Jeff & W.

 

[JD8]

I guess I really need to check this forum more often,

I took Marshall's AP1 aswell and am already getting funds together to take it again. Marshall teaches a top-notch course and is completely professional the entire time aside from a good sense of humor. Like many have said previously there are no ego issues whatsoever and student's errors are highlighted and corrected if you take their instruction.

One of the best testimonials I heard was from a guy that drove overnight from Montana? (I think) to be in our class. Regardless, he had named off a ton of classes/names from which he had received training from all over the country. He said Marshall's class was more informative than 99% of the classes he had taken and he called off some big names. That to me was quite impressive.

 

[AgentJBOND]

I took Will Andrews's 4-hour Pistol Skills 2 class at H&H for $60. Will gave a sales pitch during my SDA instruction at H&H, and Pistol Skills 2 is the entry level course after SDA. This was my first weapons training, so I have nothing to compare it with, but it certainly seemed like a good value.

Classroom
The first hour and a half was classroom time. Will reviewed and restated fundamental rules of weapons safety and communicated his philosophy emphasizing situational awareness to avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Finally, he demonstrated the grip and stance he wanted us to learn and explained the reasoning behind it. Will was very relaxed (he loves to laugh) and the classroom presentation flowed well. It was immediately apparent that he spent time developing the structure of his lesson.

Range
Next, it was off to the range. Will and his two assistant instructors opened the H&H pistol range and placed targets on stands (no swaying on the regular range clips) with a paper plate in the center of each. We started at longer range (20yds?) and gradually moved the targets closer (3yds), with individual suggestions made between each 5 shots as necessary. He taught a couple of methods to increase shooting speed, and gave us ample opportunity to practice them. Will also demonstrated a basic weapon-retention technique, then he ended with practice suggestions and a short summary of what goes on in Pistol Skills 3.

Conclusion
The class ran 1/2 hour long, which Will said is normal. To me, this is basically 1/2 hour of additional training/practice for free, and I was glad to stay the extra time. I used 100 rounds of ammunition in total, but had there been fewer people to take turns shooting, I might have used closer to 200.
The class did seem large, but I was able to learn more by walking around to listen in on Will's advice to other shooters. I also felt that I got Will's full attention when he addressed my shooting or my questions.
All in all, I had a lot of fun and learned a new way to shoot. Thanks to Will's instruction, I am able to structure my range sessions to become a better shooter.
Pistol Skills 3 here I come!

 

[Chuck S]

I took the SDA instructor course at Shoot-N-Iron in March/April. The following is my opinion. I would not take any other classes there. If you were to cut out all the "war stories" and the different sales pitches for the other classes offered there, you could have probably cut the class length by half. Now having been a professional instructor in the Army, I understand the usefulness of war stories. You can definately overdo it though.
The training didnt seem to "flow" all that great either. Like they werent all that prepared for it. First time giving it obivously. Of course, most of that could be attributed to the courseware.
Actual scheduling of the class was pretty bad. A couple of hours of classroom Friday night. Saturday was cancelled due to weather. Of course a lot of us were in from out of town, staying in hotels. They didnt notify me until I got to the facility Sat morning of the cancellation. Had to return a month later to finish the course. Spent 4-5 hours on that Saturday standing in the rain (not sprinkle, cow pi$$ing on a flat rock rain) trying to get through the course of fire. That was a struggle for all. Then more classroom. Sunday was supposed to be more range, but range was deemed to be not necessary. We were all still waterlogged from the previous day so that was no big deal.
The instructors seem to be great guys that know their stuff.
Caveat- This is my sole "training session" as a civilian (excluding the SDA class). My only experience that I have to compare this to is numerous classes, both as student and instructor in over 23 years service in the Army. So I suppose that this could be considered "the norm".