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Ranges and Self-Defense Skills

Discussion in 'Self Defense and Handgun Carry' started by gerhard1, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Defcon Shooter

    Defcon Shooter Sharpshooter

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    We run scenarios using live fire on our personal range while driving cars. Do room clearing with partners and shoot reactive targets with frangible ammo at ranges under 10 yards. Stuff you will never get to do at a basic pay to shoot range. That's why we like going to places like Gunsite and Thunder ranch you learn problem solving you would never encounter at regular ranges.
     
  2. sanjuro893

    sanjuro893 Sharpshooter

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    I think that at Wilshire range, you can tell the range master you want to draw and fire and they will come watch you or even help you do it safely. Once you've demonstrated you can do it safely, you're good to go.
     
  3. Snattlerake

    Snattlerake Sharpshooter

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    Personally I would recommend handgun retention classes.
     
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  4. gerhard1

    gerhard1 Sharpshooter

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    It has been insinuated on another gun forum that folks like us think that square-range slow precision target shooting by itself is adequate preparation for self-defense on the streets.

    I am pleased to see that this is not so.
     
  5. gerhard1

    gerhard1 Sharpshooter

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    Gunsite is denounced as nothing more than a target course by the same people who made the insinuations that I referred to in my quoted post.
     
  6. Defcon Shooter

    Defcon Shooter Sharpshooter

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    I'll try to let them know next time I'm out there doing a team live fire on the urban scrambler. Seemed like the bounding past your team mates while they engaged targets was rather dynamic to me. Seemed like the indoor room clearing live fire with a partner was some what more exciting and intense than target shooting. We did target shoot on the first day for about two hours I think to make sure nobody had trouble with the safety rules. 15 yard failure drills in 2.0 seconds from the holster did not allow for a whole lot of fine tuning your aim though.
     
  7. gerhard1

    gerhard1 Sharpshooter

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    I think they're full of it myself. Not Gunsite, but the echo chamber in the other forum.
     
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  8. druryj

    druryj Administrator Staff Member

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    On the other hand, and to a certain extreme, is there really that big a need for the high-speed, low-drag tactics taught at many places for the average person who just wants to carry a firearm for "protection?" Say, the middle-aged, little-bit overweight, somewhat outta shape guy or gal? Clearing rooms with a partner? Bounding past each other in a dynamic live-fire setting? Engaging multiple targets while on the move? That's all good if you are training as part of a SWAT or reaction team, but what does the average person who legally has a gun need? The average man or woman who simply carries a handgun to defend themselves or buys one to have in their home? Think about what a lot of folks carry; a .38 snubbie or something smaller, a little pocket or purse gun maybe, like an LCP...super popular, Ruger has sold a boatload of them. Good luck with the high-speed, low-drag scenarios with that crowd. Many of these folks don't know a Mozambique Drill from a Margarita, and really, probably don't care.

    In my mind, one skill everyone really needs is how to execute a seemingly simple reload under stress; and maybe even more so, when to reload. Factor in the pucker factor when rounds start flying. How to respond to that is very hard to teach, as well as to learn.

    What about mental training for that surprise moment when the bad guy sticks a gun in your face as you are exiting or entering your vehicle, your seat belt still draped over your arm, cell phone to one ear, maybe burdened down with a shopping bag or two and your handgun is in your holster? What about really thinking through shoot/don't shoot scenarios? You better be right, or you could be facing a stiff prison sentence.

    Situational awareness is something we talk about here often, everybody on a gun forum seems to think they have it. I bet that few really do. The vast majority of people who legally carry a weapon are not going to go to Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch, or any of the other similar places that are really good at marketing their training classes but in reality, at least in my opinion, offer very little of practical use to them. Oh don't get me wrong, they are great training tools. Great for some, but maybe not for Joe Average. Safety and marksmanship are critical, clearing rooms and bounding around shooting past each other in training? Maybe not so much.

    Static ranges at least offer something for the average person; familiarity, safe handling of your firearm, and some basic marksmanship. I do not think, as @gerhard1 asks in Post #1, that "a compelling case can be made that they inhibit development of self-defense skills" as certainly, people realize the limitations placed on them in such a facility. At least I hope so.
     
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  9. dennishoddy

    dennishoddy Sharpshooter

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    I can't get past standing static at a bench and thinking I'm getting any training other than pulling a trigger. Most of the indoor shoots I've been to are just shooting at a target that has holes punched in it from previous shooters. I want to see every shot I fire and where it hits.
    I know it's possible to run the target in and out to see that but most of the folks I see at indoor ranges are just pulling the trigger, and never run the target in to cover the existing holes. I walk a hundred yards at our range down and then a hundred back to see a 1 shot group that has just been fired with a rifle. Put pasters on the hole and shoot one more again after the barrel cools. Rinse and repeat. (rifle stuff)
    In a defensive situation at home I'm not going to stand at the coffee table and trade shots with an intruder. I'll be moving and looking for cover. Unfortunately in the home there is almost zero cover. You can't hide behind the couch or some sheet rock. Pistol round will pass completely through the thick part of a 2X4 and not slow down much. How do I know that? We have it happen all the time shooting steel challenge when someone shoots low on a plate that is supported by a 2X4 with a 9mm.
    Most situations won't require a reload in the home or in the street as it will likely be done before that's an issue in reality, but the training to reload under pressure is certainly an asset that needs learned. Yes, there are exceptions to needing a reload, but most times that never happens. Hi cap mags work for that situation.
    You don't get that at an indoor range busting paper. Drawing from cover is another skill you can't do at an indoor range unless your at a sanctioned competition. They don't allow it.
    I stand to be corrected, but the basic defensive move in a shooting situation is to MOVE! Most folks can't hit a moving target without a lot of training.
    USPSA and IDPA competitions is where you learn to shoot on the move and be accurate with fast shooting. Both skills needed in a gunfight.
    IDPA is more combat related with tactical reloads vs USPSA where you dump the mag on the ground and reload another, both under pressure.
    I'm still a fan of outdoor ranges without some of the draconian rules some of them have vs indoor.
     
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  10. druryj

    druryj Administrator Staff Member

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    Shooting while moving to cover is critical, and probably to some extent instinctual too. High cap mags are not a factor with almost all pocket or purse guns. I'm not arguing, simply saying that I don't think a static range hurts a person's from a defensive skills point of view. But of course, I would prefer an outdoor range without some of the rules almost all indoor ranges have to as well.
     

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