Sage Dynamics Red Dot study

[Rez Exelon]

Another vote for the Holosun. The circle dot is much easier to pick up and train to, the Shake Awake is fantastic, solar backup is great, and it's been rock solid for me. The other thing is that the circle is 32 moa at 100, meaning 3.2 moa at 10. Which is a good "get the bullet in here" range for defense IMHO.

 

[ef9turbo]

An RDS on a pistol has gained a lot of momentum in the last year or so. Within the last year, I sent a proposal to my PD about having them purchase 3 G17 MOS platforms and optics for the instructors to T&E for a year and got it approved. Listed below are what we purchased for T&E.

-3 Glock 17 gen 5 MOS
-3 CHPWS plates
-3 Safariland RDS holsters
-1 Trijicon RMR type 2 3.25moa
-1 Trijicon RMR type 2 6.5moa
-1 Holosun 507c V2

Initially it was difficult finding the dot due to the thousands upon thousands of reps of finding your sights during presentation. I had to ingrain in my head "Target/threat focus" to start picking up the red dot faster. You also need to think about bringing the rear slide plate to your nose instead of sights inline with your eyes. Your body will automatically, and with some practice, pick up the dot as it comes into view during your presentation. I also noticed that the times that I did not find my dot, my support hand grip was not.. fundamentally sound; locked out, strong grip, etc. When I fixed those two, the dot was there 95% of the time.

Zeroing is simple as I used Sage Dynamics technique and was able to do it in 20 rounds and maintain a 2-2.5" group at 25 yards. Running a qual was easy and felt like cheating. Shooting fast and maintaining solid hits was easy. From the holster, with a few reps, it became easy. Still not as fast as I was with iron sights, but a consistent 1.25-5 second draw and hit, 7 yards at the CLEET head scoring ring is very simply to do from a triple retention SLS/ALS holster.

The biggest learning curve for red dots is to threat/target focus and support hand grip. When those two are achieved, it is very hard to beat. Red dots are the wave of the future for both civilian and mil/leo world. When you're in a shooting, you're almost 100% likely to be target/threat focused anyways and the red dot will help make shots easier. The data is there and supports it.

Now to quality of optics. The RMR is a beast, but has parallax issues and is not a true 1x, though there have been very few that I've looked through that are. The RMR has a bluish tint to it, but like anything else, the more you shoot it the less you notice it. To change the battery on the RMR, the optic has to be taken off. In theory, zero should return, but always verify it. We will probably change it out every year during our qualification week and verify zero then.

The Holosun glass is clear and MUCH better than the RMR. The dot IMO is much crisper and less of a blob, but the dot alone also is a 2moa. The dot/circle and circle only are huge and bothersome for me, but I can see it being beneficial to new shooters. The V2 has a side battery tray, so you no longer need to take the optic off to change the battery. Because they did that, they also lost the ability to run a bigger battery. The Holosun does have a long battery life and the solar.

I personally bought a Holosun 508T V2 and got it a week and a half ago from Holosun. The optic itself is essentially the 507c but with a square face and titanium body. It has all the same features, just a better built optic. Glass is clear and optic isn't as big as the 507/508 v1's. So far, my initial thoughts is it is a much better optic than the 507c. I will not tell you my prices on both, but for the little extra cost, it would be dumb to not just get a 508T V2. I'm in line for a 509, so I look forward to that too.

Overall, I think that the learning curve for an optic is easier than that of iron sights, simply because of having only one focal plane. An optic is NOT going to make you a better shooter, though I believe it can make you a better shooter faster.

My PD does mandatory monthly range and we will be allowing our guys/gals to shoot our guns, different optics and MOA to see how they like it. Us three are using them on duty now to test durability.

 

[AtomicTango]

Nice write up Ef9, well said. Cool to hear your input from a duty perspective. Bringing the rear slide plate up to your nose is a good way to put it.

Are any of your department T&E guns set up to use an iron sight cowitness?

I wish Glock would get their head out of their ass and include better plates with the MOS models. I guess it’s the same philosophy as their sights.

 

[ef9turbo]

We are not using a co-witness. In my mind, the whole reason for an rds is to eliminate the multi focal plane and keep it one focal plane. The dot is simply a rear sight and if the dot is there, the path of the bullet will be the same. I’ve tried placement of dot in numerous areas of the optic and it doesn’t affect shot placement, and i knew it wouldn’t but I wanted to be able to answer that to my guys/gals. Some think that the dot has to be right on top of the front sight, which then makes you focus on your red dot, which is not what you want to do...

Irons are simply there in the event the rds goes down so you have sights to aim.

The MOS plates are garbage, that’s why we went with the CHPWS plates. They are solid, well milled and give lots of real estate for the screws to set. I don’t see any issues with them at all. If you run MOS, those are a must.

 

[ef9turbo]

Here are some photographs. I'm by no means an expert at all with RDS's, but will answer whatever I can if I can.

 

[JD8]

We are not using a co-witness. In my mind, the whole reason for an rds is to eliminate the multi focal plane and keep it one focal plane. The dot is simply a rear sight and if the dot is there, the path of the bullet will be the same. I’ve tried placement of dot in numerous areas of the optic and it doesn’t affect shot placement, and i knew it wouldn’t but I wanted to be able to answer that to my guys/gals. Some think that the dot has to be right on top of the front sight, which then makes you focus on your red dot, which is not what you want to do...

Irons are simply there in the event the rds goes down so you have sights to aim.

The MOS plates are garbage, that’s why we went with the CHPWS plates. They are solid, well milled and give lots of real estate for the screws to set. I don’t see any issues with them at all. If you run MOS, those are a must.

What makes the MOS plates garbage? I was just looking at a G40 MOS yesterday. I see the CHPWS plates eliminate the gap from the slide to the optic?

 

[ef9turbo]

The MOS plate is like a pressed metal. Not all plates sit flush with the gun and they don’t give enough material for threads for the optics. There are many many reports of them breaking, stripping, and optics falling off because of the MOS plates. Poorly designed.

I’m not saying they won’t work for you, but for a duty or ccw standpoint, I’ll pay the extra $50-60 to be sure my optic stays on, zeroed, and functional.

 

[Shadowrider]

The G34 MOS I had didn't want to let the screws stay tight, so I'm thinking ef9 is correct. I noticed that they are really thin even for the fine thread they have when I reset mine with locktite. Traded it off with a couple extra screws shortly after so IDK if it was "really fixed" or not. Also the screw length is critical, if it tightens up on the slide from being too long instead of the plate threads you still have a loose sight.

 

[ef9turbo]

The factory plates have so many drilled holes that it weakens the plates. They are thick, so when attached to the slide, offer very little threads to get set. Then the screws provided for the optic cause the same issues. You MIGHT get lucky to get 3 threads on, and if you torque to spec, it's almost guaranteed to strip the screws.

When the screws back out, the plates have play between the slide and plate, causing it to flex, then break or fall off. The CHPWS plates are thinner, have LOTS of material to set properly into the slide. They also have studs that set the optic in place and provide plenty of thread to set the optic in place. Thread count to the slide and optic is probably 8-10 by memory.

I have not had any issues with it. I also know that many large agencies that do run RDS are either milled or run an MOS with the CHPWS plates after extensive testing.

 

[Shadowrider]

...and provide plenty of thread to set the optic in place. Thread count to the slide and optic is probably 8-10 by memory.

That right there makes them worth it.