Shooting on Brookside

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Jam Master Jay

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Since you all here seem to have all the answers, what would have been the appropriate course of action?

Should he have pulled the gun and attempted to hold them at gunpoint?

Should he have used his ninja karate skills to beat them down without using his gun?

What should I have done if it had been me who was attacked for no reason? I carry and I am not a fighter so I know I can't hold up in a fist fight, even against one guy.

What should a woman or weak old guy do in that situation?


My answer to all of the above is: If someone means to physically hurt you, you have all the reason you need to shoot.
 

Michael Brown

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Since you all here seem to have all the answers, what would have been the appropriate course of action?

Should he have pulled the gun and attempted to hold them at gunpoint?

Should he have used his ninja karate skills to beat them down without using his gun?

What should I have done if it had been me who was attacked for no reason? I carry and I am not a fighter so I know I can't hold up in a fist fight, even against one guy.

What should a woman or weak old guy do in that situation?


My answer to all of the above is: If someone means to physically hurt you, you have all the reason you need to shoot.

1) If you carry, you are willing to be a fighter; that is what carrying a gun is for. The fact that you have deliberately chosen not to enhance a particular set of skills does not change the difficulty of the situation.

2) You, the old, the weak and the young and the strong should all do the same thing; look to shore up your weaknesses as best you are able, use practical tactics to avoid confrontation or put yourself in the best position possible if you must fight and then fight with whatever you have when your life is on the line.

3) You need to be able to articulate effectively to police, a judge, and a jury why you took whatever action you took and have them agree with you.

Those are some answers no matter who you are.

Michael Brown
 

Iwant1

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No, I think you misunderstood the answer.

Shooting someone who is actively fighting you is much more difficult than most gun people would have you believe.

The second person didn't get shot because he was kicking the crap out of the guy with the gun. I am confident the second person would have been shot if the shooter had been able to.

The decision to shoot seems appropriate legally. The shooter was jsut not able to get the job done on two people.

Ability to manage the scenario he was dealt was likely the reason only one person was shot.

Michael Brown

Mr. Brown,
Due to your responses on many current and previous threads, I respect and appreciate your postings. I feel that if we were talking instead of typing there wouldn't be much disagreement.
I'm speculating things that happened that we're unsure of. With the facts I know, I feel that a good prosecutor could convict the shooter of murder, UNLESS there was a need to stop or he was ALREADY stopped. Other than this he should have kept riding, or parked and ran into the bar(where he knew many people b/c he was a regular) and asked/yelled for help BEFORE going trigger happy.
 

MLR

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+1, Bringing a gun to a fist fight; unless you're disabled, geriatric, or saddled with some other obvious atrophy, is considered excessive force.

I agree with you on the way the law sees these things. It would be more correct though to say that the attackers brought a fistfight to a man armed with a gun. Just the opposite of what I emphasized in your comment. Its a shame that the law allows the attackers to define the way you can defend yourself when they attack.

Michael
 

Saur

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Hey guys, just chiming in and relating some of my experiences from CQT and a particuar drill from a pistol class Tactical Response.

From what I read, the good guy was harassed, followed, and accosted by two bad guys. At some point, the good guy managed to break a shot on one assailant while the second assailant was working a choke hold on said good guy. Thankfully, someone stepped in and peeled off the second bad guy, and the fight ended.I've got some thoughts on why he didn't shoot the second bad guy.

One is that he could have been losing consciousness, and was unable to engage the second assailant. At Tactical Response, they have a drill where an instructor puts you in a rear naked choke and gives you the command to engage a paper target a few yards away. How quickly you lose your legs, eyesight, and consciousness was startling!

Tactical Response did show us some ways of defending against such an attack, but outside of attacking the choking arm, I feel your best bet is negotiating the fight with unarmed skills to help prevent getting caught up in that predicament from the get-go. Some of the other techniques left the gun a little open for my tastes, and I wouldn't want the opponent getting my gun in addition to my back. That leads into thought two.

Two, I've come to learn that its very hard to hit someone (with anything) when they have a superior position on you. That kind of positional dominance is what you try to prevent the other guys from getting on you, while at the same time you try to get/keep on them.

CQT covers just how to get to those positions, and how to watch out for/defend against them. Good position can mean getting your gun out and putting shots on target, or losing your gun and getting shot. Recognizing when and where to draw your gun, and having the skills to exploit those opportunities are very important. I think the good guy did something right for sure since he was able to get that pistol out and in action just against the one bad guy. Getting hits on the second bad guy would definitely have been a troubling situation (see point one above).

Its all too easy to get your draw fouled up by hands raking your arm away, or grabbing your wrists and elbows, or grabbing your own gun!. Its all too easy for your weapon to malfunction particularly if its a semi auto... slide going out of battery, failing to cycle a new round because the slide was jammed up on bodies, clothes, whatever. Even a firm grasp on the cylinder of a revolver can make for a very, very heavy trigger pull that might offer just enough of a hiccup to carry big consequences.

Three, maybe the good guy was spent. His body was giving it all in a matter of seconds. Its unfortunate, but generally speaking, bad guys with a predisposition for violence seem to be in much better shape than your average good guy. I believe Michael Brown has a good post on that here as well. I can tell you from my experiences with Force on Force training that I don't end those evolutions wishing I could bench another 10lbs, only with the idea that I need much, much more conditioning!

Four, maybe the fight was indeed over after the first shot. Even if the second guy didn't take a bullet, the fact that he just heard, or saw his buddy take a round to the chest could have provided a psychological hit to his mindset that convinced him enough was enough. Or just the simple tactical facts that his numbers were dwindling, while the good guys were increasing (bystander stepping in to peel him off) and the fact that he was unarmed, and the other side had a gun.

From what I read it sounds justifiable to me. I don't have all the facts on hand, but from what I've read it seems like getting in a gunfight was the last thing on the biker's mind when he was trying to update his buddies on the failing health of Mr. Gator.

I would also encourage everyone who DOES carry a weapon, oc spray, knife, gun, or whatever, to please seriously consider force-on-force training. I've taken a variety of courses (rifle, shotgun, various pistol courses) and by far the most beneficial for me, and certainly the most applicable to my mission (avg. good guy minding his own business self defense) has been CQT. If only for the pre-assault cue recognition and the managing unknown contacts learning blocks. Both of which were big concerns of mine prior to attending.
 

TerryP

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Saur, + 1
From what little I know about this fight I am amazed that the biker was able to place a precise shot under the circumstances.
It can be difficult to deploy tools against one attacker if they make it to contact range and posess any skills at all.

When the odds are 2 against one its almost impossible.
Remember the attackers had some skills/experience here as one had gotten the bikers back and set a choke that worked.
More than once I have seen very physical, skilled combatants get smoked when it went 2 on 1.

Everyone needs to realistically examine how well prepared they are to deal with things..

Remember, no matter how bad you may want to you cant just start shooting cause somebody scares you...
 

Cue

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From what little I know about this fight I am amazed that the biker was able to place a precise shot under the circumstances.
It can be difficult to deploy tools against one attacker if they make it to contact range and posess any skills at all.

When the odds are 2 against one its almost impossible.
Remember the attackers had some skills/experience here as one had gotten the bikers back and set a choke that worked.
More than once I have seen very physical, skilled combatants get smoked when it went 2 on 1.

Everyone needs to realistically examine how well prepared they are to deal with things..

Remember, no matter how bad you may want to you cant just start shooting cause somebody scares you...

no no no

I learned on the big screen years ago that each combatant must wait until the current attacker has been dispatched before he attacks the victim.
 

prdator

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My 2c

I'm assuming that the good guy knew he was being followed, with that assumption. Why did he stop? Im sure he had no idea that things would go that far! But he could have kept driving, and maybe even called 911 to let them know what was going on and have a unit get involved.
Having been in a running "fight" that's what I tried but 911 put me on hold.
Its still a tactically sound idea.

Once he had stopped and the "bad guys" closed on him, this is were the "MUC" managing unknown contacts would have came into play.
Had he really known how to do that, and recognize the pre assault indicators the bad guy's showed,this might not have got to the point it did.

I must say that taking MUC training and force on force training,( such as CQT with MB) is Paramount.
Once you have had a Force on Force class you will begin to understand that what you have always thought you can do with a handgun is wrong..

In the case we are discussing with two bad guys in a parking lot, and it turing to a H2H fight, once the decision to use lethal has been made. Actually drawing the handgun can be very hard wile the adversaries are beating the snot out of you. Using it effectively against Both adversary's is even harder to do!!

The situation is just so dynamic, in my experiences in force on force training
with two adversaries I was only able to make good hits on both "guys" one time out of 4 ( IIRC). Now I would like to think of my self as an above average pistolero!! But with all the training I've had it is still very hard to manage a situation like he was in.

This just goes to show that YOU do not get to decide when or were this might happen!!!
Force on Force training is something I would highly recommend, and MUC training IMHO is even more important.

But the chance to get to do both of them and go though a "police" interview is probably the best the best training you'll ever get to do!! So form someone that's been there and cant wait to get back go do CQT or ECQC.

My best to the good guy I really hope all this works out for him.
 

Glocktogo

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For everyone focusing on his stopping: You don't dial 911 while riding a motorcycle. If you can't go somewhere the cager can't follow, you're extremely vulnerable while riding. All they need to do is clip you and you're under their tires.

If I couldn't get away, I'd get off as quickly as possible, preferrably where there would be witnesses. Obviously these two thugs didn't care who saw them commit assault.
 

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