Shooting on Brookside

[Thorgrim]

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.
First off I think a few members here are a little misguided in what they feel is disparity of force.


As far as my background goes, I spent some time at Mikey's gym boxing and wrestling. Mikey & Tom Jones being my main instructors. Later I started taking some shooting classes @ TDSA & w/ Tom Givens.... One of the best classes I took was a CQT class taught by Mike Brown & Brandon Bennett. That was an eye opener. After that I joined Mike's training group. I am not some billy bad-ass. Just a student & workout partner.

I am probably bigger and stronger than 80% of the people here (not saying much); but I will tell you that even with some training, trying to fight two (or more) males that are committed in hurting you, it will be extremely likely that you get hurt badly or killed. I'd rather have more skill and a much higher level of conditioning to enhance my survival, than a little size.

For the individuals that think a 2 on one isn't so bad, If you would like to get an idea of what you may encounter please take a CQT class. It will open your eyes; but it is only a start.

You will find out how difficult weapons access & retention can be. I remember in my first CQT class. I was fighting against Eric Stacey and just when I had the upper hand his partner snatched my pistol from it's holster. Too bad for me.

Most of the time in a CQT fight, you'll find going for your pistol is not good. I generally prefer my knife.....not a pocket folder. Try it you'll see.

Another time I let Eric Stacey put a tight triangle on me. I asked him to. I was already a little winded. I tried to stack him, no luck. I was almost out within 5 seconds. A tight blood choke on an exhausted victim can put someone out fast.

Space is your friend, get away if you can.

I personally know 2 guys that have killed their victim with one punch, head trauma on pavement...and another that induced a coma.

I'm not going to argue about the law or DA and I can't comment about the Brookside shooting. I don't know enough about the shooting.

I carry a gun to protect my self/family. Shooting paper is easy. Handling violence is not. If you have physical limitation, work with what you've got.

+1 for the comments from the guys that have done some of the work. They know what's up.

Violent acts can take place anywhere. Be prepared....nuff said.

 

[skyydiver]

For everyone focusing on his stopping: You don't dial 911 while riding a motorcycle. If you can't go somewhere the cager can't follow, you're extremely vulnerable while riding. All they need to do is clip you and you're under their tires.

If I couldn't get away, I'd get off as quickly as possible, preferrably where there would be witnesses. Obviously these two thugs didn't care who saw them commit assault.

Yep..

 

[Martialartsblackbelt]

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.
First off I think a few members here are a little misguided in what they feel is disparity of force.


As far as my background goes, I spent some time at Mikey's gym boxing and wrestling. Mikey & Tom Jones being my main instructors. Later I started taking some shooting classes @ TDSA & w/ Tom Givens.... One of the best classes I took was a CQT class taught by Mike Brown & Brandon Bennett. That was an eye opener. After that I joined Mike's training group. I am not some billy bad-ass. Just a student & workout partner.

I am probably bigger and stronger than 80% of the people here (not saying much); but I will tell you that even with some training, trying to fight two (or more) males that are committed in hurting you, it will be extremely likely that you get hurt badly or killed. I rather have more skill and a much higher level of conditioning to enhance my survival, than a little size.

For the individuals that think a 2 on one isn't so bad, If you would like to get an idea of what you may encounter please take a CQT class. It will open your eyes; but it is only a start.

You will find out how difficult weapons access & retention can be. I remember in my first CQT class. I was fighting against Eric Stacey and just when I had the upper hand his partner snatched my pistol from it's holster. Too bad for me.

Most of the time in a CQT fight, you'll find going for your pistol is not good. I generally prefer my knife.....not a pocket folder. Try it you'll see.

Another time I let Eric Stacey put a tight triangle on me. I asked him to. I was already a little winded. I tried to stack him, no luck. I was almost out within 5 seconds. A tight blood choke on an exhausted victim can put someone out fast.

Space is your friend, get away if you can.

I personally know 2 guys that have killed their victim with one punch, head trauma on pavement...and another that induced a coma.

I'm not going to argue about the law or DA and I can't comment about the Brookside shooting. I don't know enough about the shooting.

I carry a gun to protect my self/family. Shooting paper is easy. Handling violence is not. If you have physical limitation, work with what you've got.

+1 for the comments from the guys that have done some of the work. They know what's up.

Violent acts can take place anywhere. Be prepared....nuff said.

so you know Jason Nicholson ?

 

[Thorgrim]

Ugh yep. He doesn't know me by name. I'm sure he knows my face.

 

[RedTape]

1) He didn't bring a gun to a fist fight. He was followed and attacked by two individuals. He had a CCW with him. What's that I've always heard..."It doesn't do you any good if you don't carry it."

Maybe he should have fought 2 on 1 with just his fists. I'm sure that wouldn't present the danger of the attackers taking the weapon from him...i.e. now you ARE being threatened by armed assailants, except you no longer have a weapon to defend yourself. I'm confident that anyone with force on force training can tell you how easy it is to have your gun taken away...and how hard it is to protect your weapon without proper training.

2)A lot of people seem to be criticizing this guy for pulling over. Had he been in a car, I would agree with you, but a bike is a totally different story. If the drunks decided just to bump into him he could easily have crashed. Also, it's not to easy to avoid someone while on a bike AND call 911 with a helmet on (don't know if he was wearing one)...much less the dispatcher being able to hear you over the noise of the wind/bike. He didn't know these two guys would circle the block and come back to confront him while in a public place.

The simple fact is we don't really know all of the circumstances. Maybe security video will shed more light on this incident. Based on police statements, it sounds like he was outnumbered, attacked and in pretty bad shape being hit in the head and choked (losing oxygen to the brain for a short period of time can cause serious brain damage...which sounds like a probable outcome had others not come to his aid and pulled assailant #2 off him). Based on the information provided it sounds justified, but who knows until a full report is released.

 

[TulsaBandit]

I don't get it. Most of you are CCW advocates and have one yourself. A man uses his after being in fear for his life and half of you are doing nothing but criticizing him and saying he was in the wrong.

This is what makes it hard to convince a jury of our peers that we were in fear for our life. If a forum of CCW advocates and carriers can't be convinced, how hard is it to convince those that are unfamiliar with the intricacies of the laws?

His thought process was probably that these guys attempted to kill him while driving by trying to get him to crash or dump his bike. If these two thugs that are beating his ass were willing to risk killing someone on the road, why would they stop that behavior when they follow him and cause him physical harm.

I understand that a lot of you share the opinion that all CCL holders should get combat training, martial arts training, boxing, or take MMA classes. But that is not the law, and a lot of people are physically unable to do those things. The law says he is allowed to carry a weapon and the law says that he is allowed to use the weapon if he is in fear of his life.

Whether or not you all believe that ninja skills would have helped him, he met the criteria for a justified shooting by the letter of the law, and now must convince a judge to see it the same way. We should be backing this guy to get some kind of precedence set in case we are in a similar position.

 

[Stephen Cue]

I don't get it. Most of you are CCW advocates and have one yourself. A man uses his after being in fear for his life and half of you are doing nothing but criticizing him and saying he was in the wrong.
.

You were there? You know without a shadow of a doubt that he feared for his life?

First off, no one has typed in this forum that he was in the wrong. However, of course we must be critical of his actions so in the future we have the luxury of knowing not only what he did wrong, but also what he did right.

Again, as of now we are all still ONLY speculating.

I can't think of anyone on this forum that wants him prosecuted but I for sure am not going to flat out say he was justified for biased reasons of being a fellow CCL holder when I don't know all the details yet.

 

[EFsDad]

I know a little bit about this situation. A friend of his that was a fellow bar goer was in the hospital after he had a stroke. He died on Sunday. Anyway the biker was going to the bar to inform the others on the stroke victim's condition.

 

[TulsaBandit]

You were there? You know without a shadow of a doubt that he feared for his life?

No, of course I was not there. Which is why in my post I explain what his thought process "probably was" or might have been. Please read it all if you are going to quote from it. I guess it's possible they lost traction in their vehicle which made it look like they were trying to run him off the road, and they only followed him and confronted him to apologize. The ensuing physical violence was also an accident I suppose.

 

[Rob72]

You were there? You know without a shadow of a doubt that he feared for his life?


Again, as of now we are all still ONLY speculating.

but I for sure am not going to flat out say he was justified for biased reasons of being a fellow CCL holder when I don't know all the details yet.

Granted, there is much we don't/can't know. However, from what has been released to date, some "general points" may be reasonably hypothesized, based on the described evolution of events.

Stanton Samenow provides a good theoretical framework for these "insights," especially with his latest, No Out of Character Crime.

MUC does the same, live.