Shooting on Brookside

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Michael Brown

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I don't get it. Most of you are CCW advocates and have one yourself. A man uses his after being in fear for his life and half of you are doing nothing but criticizing him and saying he was in the wrong.

This is what makes it hard to convince a jury of our peers that we were in fear for our life. If a forum of CCW advocates and carriers can't be convinced, how hard is it to convince those that are unfamiliar with the intricacies of the laws?

His thought process was probably that these guys attempted to kill him while driving by trying to get him to crash or dump his bike. If these two thugs that are beating his ass were willing to risk killing someone on the road, why would they stop that behavior when they follow him and cause him physical harm.

I understand that a lot of you share the opinion that all CCL holders should get combat training, martial arts training, boxing, or take MMA classes. But that is not the law, and a lot of people are physically unable to do those things. The law says he is allowed to carry a weapon and the law says that he is allowed to use the weapon if he is in fear of his life.

Whether or not you all believe that ninja skills would have helped him, he met the criteria for a justified shooting by the letter of the law, and now must convince a judge to see it the same way. We should be backing this guy to get some kind of precedence set in case we are in a similar position.

There does not seem to be any LEGAL issue with the shooting.

There MAY be some TACTICAL issues that should be discussed and I believe that is what the forum is doing.

Where we need to be careful is becoming too accusatory in our statements and demanding too much from someone in a crisis. THAT is monday-morning quarterbacking and is unproductive and impolite.

Discussing how we can avoid or improve on our own potential situation is a good thing; criticizing the victim is not.

Thus it would probably be good to avoid typing if you must speculate too much or make blanket statements about the decision-making of the victim without a proper foundation.

Other than that, I say carry on.........

Michael Brown
 

Iwant1

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There does not seem to be any LEGAL issue with the shooting.

There MAY be some TACTICAL issues that should be discussed and I believe that is what the forum is doing.

Where we need to be careful is becoming too accusatory in our statements and demanding too much from someone in a crisis. THAT is monday-morning quarterbacking and is unproductive and impolite.

Discussing how we can avoid or improve on our own potential situation is a good thing; criticizing the victim is not.

Thus it would probably be good to avoid typing if you must speculate too much or make blanket statements about the decision-making of the victim without a proper foundation.

Other than that, I say carry on.........

Michael Brown



This may be a dumb quesiton, but is there a better way than the news, to check on the status of cases like this?
 

Michael Brown

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This may be a dumb quesiton, but is there a better way than the news, to check on the status of cases like this?

Not a dumb question at all.

Generally no.

However when you have a RELIABLE means of information as we sometimes have, you can make better decisions.

I don't mind people having opinions, I just don't like people posting them if they're not well-founded on good info. I just don't see the point in posting just for the sake of expressing your opinion. I've always felt that if I didn't know the facts, I can believe whatever I want but I try to keep my mouth shut.

This is why I have always been so vehement about people posting BS here; I want this sub-forum to be for RELIABLE information only.

This is one of the reasons I always use my real name on internet forums, so people can BS-detect anything I say.

It also results in people believing I don't have a sense of humor.........

Michael Brown
 

bettingpython

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It also results in people believing I don't have a sense of humor.........

Michael Brown

But we all know you do have a sense of humor.

I think one of the salient points being missed which I pointed out and a couple of others have pointed out is that a motorcycle VS. a truck or car is a bad place to be, at that point in time if your assailants are truly determined and conditions for escape are less than optimal your life is truly at risk, getting to a safe place where you can't be run down is fairly sound. I had a coworker that was run down by a road raging cager when he was on the bike and he was lucky to survive.

Having personally been chased down riverside once by a road rager I can tell you it's not like hollywood the bikes ability is often hindered by other traffic factors.

Not getting followed home is also extremely important since you do not know what may occur at a future date if the confrontation does not end in a succesful conclusion.

Tactically neutralizing the truck's very real ability to run him down and getting to a safe place where he was known and had friends was a good decision IMHO.
 

Michael Brown

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But we all know you do have a sense of humor.

I think one of the salient points being missed which I pointed out and a couple of others have pointed out is that a motorcycle VS. a truck or car is a bad place to be, at that point in time if your assailants are truly determined and conditions for escape are less than optimal your life is truly at risk, getting to a safe place where you can't be run down is fairly sound. I had a coworker that was run down by a road raging cager when he was on the bike and he was lucky to survive.

Having personally been chased down riverside once by a road rager I can tell you it's not like hollywood the bikes ability is often hindered by other traffic factors.

Not getting followed home is also extremely important since you do not know what may occur at a future date if the confrontation does not end in a succesful conclusion.

Tactically neutralizing the truck's very real ability to run him down and getting to a safe place where he was known and had friends was a good decision IMHO.

Word.

Michael Brown
 

Iwant1

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Word.

Michael Brown

I'm not sure if I've seen a case like this yet with a motorcycle (plenty w/cars), but wasn't his life/GBH threatned at the point of the truck "R.Rage"? If there were actual vehicle contact of "bumping" he would have been justified to shoot at that point, correct?. Now, once they both park their vehicles does that threat for your life stop since they are out of their vehicle? Now the situation has to rekindle out of the vehicles in order to use any lethal force correct?
 

Stephen Cue

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I'm not sure if I've seen a case like this yet with a motorcycle (plenty w/cars), but wasn't his life/GBH threatned at the point of the truck "R.Rage"? If there were actual vehicle contact of "bumping" he would have been justified to shoot at that point, correct?. Now, once they both park their vehicles does that threat for your life stop since they are out of their vehicle? Now the situation has to rekindle out of the vehicles in order to use any lethal force correct?

Good point!

IMHO, If they made him FFL/GBH while on his bike, even though he got off the bike, and them out of their vehicle, they already established that they wanted to enduce GBH or worse. So the FFL/GBH carries over to the parking lot since they continued said threat. Again, this is strictly IMHO while all details are not present as yet.
 

Michael Brown

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I'm not sure if I've seen a case like this yet with a motorcycle (plenty w/cars), but wasn't his life/GBH threatned at the point of the truck "R.Rage"? If there were actual vehicle contact of "bumping" he would have been justified to shoot at that point, correct?. Now, once they both park their vehicles does that threat for your life stop since they are out of their vehicle? Now the situation has to rekindle out of the vehicles in order to use any lethal force correct?

Possibly.

They have manifested intent i.e. the bumping and continued the assault via their personal weapons i.e. fists, feet.

It's not as if they were posing a deadly force threat, then completely stopped.

An equivelent example would be if a person shoots at you, runs out of bullets, throws the gun down and charges you continuing the assault; They have manifested the intent to kill you and there is reason to believe they will do so with their personal weapons.

This is different that an assault by an otherwise unarmed person.

The two on one issue, IMO and most courts' past practice, makes deadly force a reasonable course of action IF both manifested the intent to assault the victim i.e. they both got out of the truck and exhibited pre-assault cues or verbal intent.

This is one of the reasons it is so important to be trained to recognize violent behavior and pre-assault cues; A lot of people can recognize an impending ass-whupping. Not everyone can articulate it and that is critical to your defense.

One of the reasons police officers are frequently cleared in what might seem like a controversial shooting i.e. the Diallo case is their (or their experts') ability to explain their training and experience in the concepts of precognition. Since police officers see violence firsthand so frequently, the courts tend to recognize their ability to see it coming. You can get the same through documented training or other experience.

Michael Brown
 

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