ShotGun Guru's....HELP!

[APeterson]

I'd bet money that Jesse has put more shells through his M1/M2's than you have ever shot in any gun total in your life.

I have No Doubt that he has. Also consider I am a 10 year Army Combat veteran and not some kid off the street. In my opinion and the U.S. Military's opinion the Benelli M4 is twice the shotgun the M1/M2's are.
Still the M1/M2 are fine pieces of precision equipment. No shame in being the second best anything.

Additionally, I'd bet money I've been through more women than you and Jesse combined. <wink, wink>
Are we done with the male machismo now??

 

[ttown]

Well I've been shooting shotguns for about 40 years now and have pumps, autos, and O/U's. I use an O/U for hunting anymore. For HD shotgun that going to be in your bedroom I consider that a secondary gun and not a replacement for a handgun.

As far a auto vs pumps I've seen a ton of autos fail but again they were shot often. A good cheap pump Mavrick 88, Mossberg 500, or an 870 is more than likely all you'll need. Your at your house not on the street you don't need a street sweeper shotgun IMO. A 12GA is your best choice it can be loaded for anything in North America has 2 3/4, 3, and 3 1/2 shells depending on the gun you get. The number of pellets make a difference I would never use under a #1 buck for any of my HD shotguns but a 20ga your going to be looking at #3 or #4 shot.

IMO you don't need a $1000 gun for HD if your using it right. It's a stand your ground gun (defensive) while you call the police. You shouldn't be clearing the house with it esp since you said HD only which means to me very little practice if any. A pump will shoot after sitting in the conor for 5 years I wouln't want to try that with my auto's. Pattern the gun with the ammo your going to use and your good. I had a upland special in 20 ga that kicked more than any 12 gage I ever shot due to it's weight a 20 ga won't do anything better than a 12 if you want to shoot #3 you get a lot more in a 2 3/4 or 3 inch shell than any 20 ga shell. They also load these thing up or down depending on what you want you don't get near the selection in the 20 ga as you do in the 12.

Anyway that's what I think from a hunter that also enjoys clays on the off season. Your biggest failure I'd think would be forgetting to take the safely off or loading a shell if you don't keep one in the chamber. After the first shot if the BG don't hall arse your must have them connored most BG aren't going to be engaging in a shoot out I wouln't think if they were smart.

My bedroom gun is a inexpensive one that works, I'd crap if someone broke in while I was gone and took a good gun worth a grand or more.

 

[KurtM]

It just struck me after re-reading this thread that this is the EXACT manual/auto debate from back in the 70s when P.D.s were first switching over to autos from revolvers. The tired old "I have seen lots of auto jam, but revolvers/pump never ever will" is just that ...tired and old! Modern autos are no more prone to malfunction than a pump, matter of fact it takes some of the "operator error" out of the malfunction realm. It is ludicrous to think that an auto sitting in the corner for 5 years would automatically malfunction, as opposed to a Maverick 88. Sitting is sitting and doesn't impart "excess wear", nor is it a particularly dirty environment, a good auto will function just fine under those conditions.

Forgotten safety? Failure to chamber a round? All that stuff is "manual of arms" and that has nothing to do with the operating system of the shotgun. Now I don't claim to have shot X amount of rounds more than anyone else, nor am I near the firearms expert Jesse is! What I do know is that after teaching shotgun classes all over the world for Police, Military, and Civilian defensive and competition use, I would hands down recommend a quality auto loading shotgun for any defensive/offensive use well before I would any manually operated shotgun, and that comes form teaching practical shotgun to all sorts of folks since 1992.

 

[ttown]

And I'd be more concerned that someone with an auto would have an AD. I've seen it in the field with people new to shotguns or don't shoot much and why many people want to buy thier kids/wifes a single shot or pump the first gun and not any semi-auto. I'm surprised that you haven't had to tell someone to point the gun in a safe direction, many people with autos have to be reminded THIS GUN IS STILL LOADED . Under stress a lot of crazy stuff happens. A home owner isn't a LEO and if your chasing down the BG like your one instead of protecting your life your at the wrong school IMO. Grab the gun in your bedroom and hold your ground they won't be coming after you after the first shot.

Semi's are always more senstive to ammo than a good pump trust me on this one. Rather a handgun or shotgun you need to make sure that your select ammo ejects or you have a single shot. Not so much on a revolver or pump but you need to test this too. I've just seen too many autos not eject some brands of ammo, in fact just had this happen this weekend in Sand Spring while shooting trap. Found out real quick it didn't like Wincherster value pack ammo FTE while I had some Federal value pack it loved as well as reloads that was fine. I thought my new shotgun broke after the first shoot until I stated looking at it. In all the years I've been at ranges or the field shooters that don't shoot or hunt very often the safety or failing to put a round in the chamber tops the list. Once you get off the range and get to the field with rain, snow, sand, dust, weeds, etc and lot of crap can get in or on your gun while hunting all day in the elements a gas operated auto is more likely to have issue than a pump not that a HD shotgun will be going though that.

 

[KurtM]

I fail to see where I said "chase" anyone down. In my first post I pointed out that you have to proof your shotgun with what ammo you are going to use so I fail to see how this effect our debate.

As for a complete novice, YES you have to teach them...that is why they take my classes. If, as you suggest, you get a trusty old pump or single shot for a complete novice and give them NO training you are just in as much risk as if they have an auto. My point still remains you need to be proficient with it....even if it just sits in the corner, and if your not you have nothing more than a loud club. I do agree that you should never hunt in your own house, but I disagree with the rest of your premiss.

 

[ttown]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. You don't need a 1000 dollar gun to protect yourself. The worst shots I've ever seen in my life use auto. They sure went thought the ammo though. It not real hard to pump a shotgun. I really didn't read many post on this thead I think someone with a thrower that shoot clays will do fine in a pinch JMO. To me a shotgun is a secondary gun that if you have time in the middle of the night you grab it's not one you want to have to run to your room to grab. Not too many of us hunter have had the LEO training and I really fail to see where a lot of the stuff applies to anyone but military or LEO's from classes I've taken here but they are good no doubt and make you think about how you'd defend your house and who goes where and who does what. There a little more to defense than pulling the trigger.

 

[AKguy1985]

I'm happy with my mossberg 590 with bayonet lug. And if you expend 9 rounds of 00 buck, fix bayonet and stab the bastard/s

 

[doctorjj]

Didn't mean for it to be a male machismo thing. Was just trying to impart that perhaps Jesse, from emperical evidence, maybe, just maybe, knows what he's talking about. But I see where what I said sounds bad, so I apologize.

As for KurtM's comments, we all need to read his posts carefully and know that whatever he says is the truth as borne out through years of experience, training and practical application.

 

[KurtM]

I never said that you need a $1000.00 shotgun to save your life. What I did say was anything will do as long as you know how to use it. No it isn't hard to pump a shotgun, but it is darn hard if you haven't done it much (back to that training thing). Lack of accuracy, blamed on an operating system, is a non sequitur. I would proffer this. Some of the most accurate shooters shoot semi-autos, like High Power shooters, Military snipers, and action shooters the world over. If the auto shooters you have been around are the most inaccurate, they need more training. Darn back to training!

BTW the inaccuracy thing.....auto shooters shoot a lot and cant hit anything was also one of the thing the old guys threw out there during the 70s when the cops were changing over, so in a way all the arguments as to why a pump is better are at best old cliches and not based in fact.

 

[ronny]

The real non sequitur here is the idea that sniper accuracy has anything to do with the conversation started by the OP.

This has turned into a typical internet pissing match, although at a reasonably courteous level. In probably 90% of the home defense situations, a single shot 12 gauge would do the job nicely and a double would be overkill.