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<blockquote data-quote="p238shooter" data-source="post: 1983675" data-attributes="member: 24583"><p>I totally agree with you that unions were needed in the early days of the industrial revolution, but like a clock pendulum, I think it has swung too far the other way.</p><p></p><p>I was a union construction worker for over 12 years.</p><p>I owned a business using union labor for 6 years.</p><p>I owned a business not using union labor (not available) for over 15 years.</p><p></p><p>As a union construction worker, I attended apprenticeship classes and became a respected electrician. I applied my self and graduated #1 in my class of 25. While working I saw my union protect others that could not figure out how to wire a 3 way switch or bend a 90 in a piece of conduit with four tries. They were protected so they could remain on the job so they could "work" beside me and make the same $/hr while I was wiring motor controls and bending multiple concentric bends of pipe. Some of these "Journeymen" did not even make a good apprentice. My boss could not get rid of them, I had to carry them.</p><p></p><p>Using union members for my first business, I had to figure in that I would get 25% great workers, 50 % good workers, and 25% drones that I had to find something they were capable of doing that would not cost me more money screwing something up. I had to pay all of them the same.</p><p></p><p>My second business was mostly women in an office. If I had a good worker, I paid them more. If they were not so good, I paid them less. My philosophy was the ones who helped me make more money should be paid more. The ones that just came to work and did a minimal job did not get as much.</p><p></p><p>As a business owner who had a vision, worked days nights and weekends to start it and keep it going. (Have you ever known a business owner who worked 40 hours/wk? No, try 60 or 80.) Also most business owners invest all their life savings, borrow everything they can, and then do what they can to get by with the money they have to keep the company going to get to a point of making a profit. Giving your paycheck for a Christmas Turkey bonus for your employees is not an uncommon thing for a small business owner. For all that and more, the union comes in and tells you how to run your business, what employees you can have, how much of a pay raise you will give, what benefits you will provide. </p><p></p><p>Even without unions, the government is not much better. As an employee, if you do a great song and dance for a job interview, you have a job. It does not seem to make much difference whether you do a good job or not after that, your employer will have a hard time getting rid of you. You can quit any hour of the day because of government regulations, but the employer will have a hard time firing you for doing a poor job. I have not had to deal with Obamacare.</p><p></p><p>Then, if you happen to make a dollar, the government comes in and takes $.47 of it right off the top.</p><p></p><p>Unions have done a lot of good in the past, but are bankrupting business now because the pendulum has swung too far, just as the government regulations have done. Most business can not afford what the unions and the government has and is continuing to load on them.</p><p></p><p>By the way, in the original question, if we did not have the union people show up one morning, I think there are enough unemployed people or people that would like a better job that someone would step up and take that job unless naturally they were threatened or harmed by the union people, not because they could not do or could not learn to do the job. Yes experience is needed, but even though it might be rough for a while, it could be done, especially if the owner was able to get rid of the incompetent people and make that space available for someone who could and would do the job.</p><p></p><p>We are in for some hard times. You can only bleed the system so far and it will die. We do not let the good and talented hard working prosper on their own, they have to drag the bad and lazy with them. No different than our school systems that the classes have to progress at the pace of the slowest person that is not motivated to learn.</p><p></p><p>Fortunately my days of employee problems and paying outrageous taxes are over. Good Luck to all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="p238shooter, post: 1983675, member: 24583"] I totally agree with you that unions were needed in the early days of the industrial revolution, but like a clock pendulum, I think it has swung too far the other way. I was a union construction worker for over 12 years. I owned a business using union labor for 6 years. I owned a business not using union labor (not available) for over 15 years. As a union construction worker, I attended apprenticeship classes and became a respected electrician. I applied my self and graduated #1 in my class of 25. While working I saw my union protect others that could not figure out how to wire a 3 way switch or bend a 90 in a piece of conduit with four tries. They were protected so they could remain on the job so they could "work" beside me and make the same $/hr while I was wiring motor controls and bending multiple concentric bends of pipe. Some of these "Journeymen" did not even make a good apprentice. My boss could not get rid of them, I had to carry them. Using union members for my first business, I had to figure in that I would get 25% great workers, 50 % good workers, and 25% drones that I had to find something they were capable of doing that would not cost me more money screwing something up. I had to pay all of them the same. My second business was mostly women in an office. If I had a good worker, I paid them more. If they were not so good, I paid them less. My philosophy was the ones who helped me make more money should be paid more. The ones that just came to work and did a minimal job did not get as much. As a business owner who had a vision, worked days nights and weekends to start it and keep it going. (Have you ever known a business owner who worked 40 hours/wk? No, try 60 or 80.) Also most business owners invest all their life savings, borrow everything they can, and then do what they can to get by with the money they have to keep the company going to get to a point of making a profit. Giving your paycheck for a Christmas Turkey bonus for your employees is not an uncommon thing for a small business owner. For all that and more, the union comes in and tells you how to run your business, what employees you can have, how much of a pay raise you will give, what benefits you will provide. Even without unions, the government is not much better. As an employee, if you do a great song and dance for a job interview, you have a job. It does not seem to make much difference whether you do a good job or not after that, your employer will have a hard time getting rid of you. You can quit any hour of the day because of government regulations, but the employer will have a hard time firing you for doing a poor job. I have not had to deal with Obamacare. Then, if you happen to make a dollar, the government comes in and takes $.47 of it right off the top. Unions have done a lot of good in the past, but are bankrupting business now because the pendulum has swung too far, just as the government regulations have done. Most business can not afford what the unions and the government has and is continuing to load on them. By the way, in the original question, if we did not have the union people show up one morning, I think there are enough unemployed people or people that would like a better job that someone would step up and take that job unless naturally they were threatened or harmed by the union people, not because they could not do or could not learn to do the job. Yes experience is needed, but even though it might be rough for a while, it could be done, especially if the owner was able to get rid of the incompetent people and make that space available for someone who could and would do the job. We are in for some hard times. You can only bleed the system so far and it will die. We do not let the good and talented hard working prosper on their own, they have to drag the bad and lazy with them. No different than our school systems that the classes have to progress at the pace of the slowest person that is not motivated to learn. Fortunately my days of employee problems and paying outrageous taxes are over. Good Luck to all. [/QUOTE]
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