USSA Tactical Rifle 230

[KurtM]

"ACOGS in that class as well that didnt have the donut reticle or chevron reticle". What did they have? And if they were TA-01s, TA-11s or TA-33s they were a fixed 3.5 or 4X magnification...so for your criteria an ACOG would be a very bad choice for a tactical class...HMMMM.

Take it with iron sights? Well unless a person has a bit of grounding in iron sight shooting, it is going to really slow them down and frustrate them. For the average shooter ("I have only shot off the bench") a red dot or 1-4x scope is going to be WAY better for a class, Just ask the Army...they didn't get all those dots because they were "Tactical", it was because marksmanship was easier to train and hits were better, quicker with the dots. The people who "really smoke with irons" do so BECAUSE they shoot irons a lot. NOTHING is faster than irons up close...even dots...BUT... you have to have used them for a while. In the long run it is much easier to fight a bit of low end magnification than try to use irons for the first time in a "tactical class".

Now I will throw out this little tidbit for all the "tactical" guys out there in training land....if a person doesn't have an exceptionally dominante eye he will be able to use almost ANY type of scope at almost any magnification up-close as fast as most folks use a dot. If you have a bad dominance problem the dot will be faster. If you aren't dominant and shoot irons nothing in the world will be faster.

 

[saryan]

"ACOGS in that class as well that didnt have the donut reticle or chevron reticle". What did they have? And if they were TA-01s, TA-11s or TA-33s they were a fixed 3.5 or 4X magnification...so for your criteria an ACOG would be a very bad choice for a tactical class...HMMMM.

Take it with iron sights? Well unless a person has a bit of grounding in iron sight shooting, it is going to really slow them down and frustrate them. For the average shooter ("I have only shot off the bench") a red dot or 1-4x scope is going to be WAY better for a class, Just ask the Army...they didn't get all those dots because they were "Tactical", it was because marksmanship was easier to train and hits were better, quicker with the dots. The people who "really smoke with irons" do so BECAUSE they shoot irons a lot. NOTHING is faster than irons up close...even dots...BUT... you have to have used them for a while. In the long run it is much easier to fight a bit of low end magnification than try to use irons for the first time in a "tactical class".

Now I will throw out this little tidbit for all the "tactical" guys out there in training land....if a person doesn't have an exceptionally dominante eye he will be able to use almost ANY type of scope at almost any magnification up-close as fast as most folks use a dot. If you have a bad dominance problem the dot will be faster. If you aren't dominant and shoot irons nothing in the world will be faster.

Yes, TAO1 is correct. I never said very bad. Not sure where you got that from. I said "not ideal". They also ran the class with a AR10. Why? Because thats his rifle. I guess he forgot to get online and make sure that was ok first as well. I guess now he is now stuck knowing how to use his ACOG on his AR10 in a CQT environment. What a horrible thing.

The TA01 was not the best for the class, but they made it work because thats what they run. Why switch to an optic you have no plans on ever using again just to take a class? Now if you have plans on using a similar optic or just want to run one to try it out then great. Thats the beauty of iron sights. They never get outdated and all of us can use more practice on them. The idea behind the class isnt to win. Its to learn and get better with your equipment. If the class was a "competition" then you would roll your armory out there and each drill decide what is best to use. There are two ditches to this road though. Dont show up with your 24" bull barrel with a 5.5-22 on it. You wont be able to get the most out of it. And dont worry about having a solid background in iron sight shooting. Thats why you are taking the class. Its to learn. Show up with Irons if you want. You will learn them and learn them well. If you would like to talk to the people that teach the class I can get ahold of them so you can figure out what they say you will need. Although I have been through it and see guys go through it often I am not an expert or a instructor, just a guy who observes things and loves to shoot. The advice you have gotten so far is good to go. Dont worry about the rest.

 

[KurtM]

Sorry Steve I ran on, on that first bit. I didn't mean to imply that you thought the TA-01 was a bad choice, that was more for Josh-L.

Another bad assumption is that in two days you will learn irons and learn them well...won't happen, but you certainly can get better with them. The other bad assumption is that just because someone wins a lot of matches is that they are "competition" only. That isn't where I come from, nor is it the way I teach, I just happen to be good at it. KurtM

 

[saryan]

Sorry Steve I ran on, on that first bit. I didn't mean to imply that you thought the TA-01 was a bad choice, that was more for Josh-L.

Another bad assumption is that in two days you will learn irons and learn them well...won't happen, but you certainly can get better with them. The other bad assumption is that just because someone wins a lot of matches is that they are "competition" only. That isn't where I come from, nor is it the way I teach, I just happen to be good at it. KurtM

Actually Kurt I ment nothing by that comment on comps. I have no idea who you are or if you can shoot. I shoot a few long range matches but dont really keep up with who is who in the circuit. Congrats on being good though.
Learn them well is relative comment to the person I was speaking to. Not to someone who is an established competition shooter.

 

[KurtM]

I can't shoot, but boy can I type. Almost all "competition shooters" are optic guys ( Service rifle and Hi-Power excluded ), there are only 4-5 real good iron shooters left in the "Action shooting sports, Like IPSC rifle and 3-Gun so your statement is kind of a non sequator. From my statement you wouldn't know if I was good at shooting or teaching, but thanks for giving me the benifit of the doubt about the shooting thing. Having done a bit of teaching, I still stand by the statement of being better off with an optic especially one that turns down real low, unless you have done a bunch of Iron shooting previously.

BTW one of the groups I have been working with as of late is using a 14.5" barreld AR-10 derivitive as an entry weapon because "it tends to work faster", and several of them sport TA-11s and an off-set red dot....and I make them cover over the dot off for about half the class, So your story about the guy with the AR-10 and TA-01 is music to my ears. If you want to know who I am just as Erik or Mike about "that Kurt guy" from Red-Neck Tactical.

 

[saryan]

I can't shoot, but boy can I type. Almost all "competition shooters" are optic guys ( Service rifle and Hi-Power excluded ), there are only 4-5 real good iron shooters left in the "Action shooting sports, Like IPSC rifle and 3-Gun so your statement is kind of a non sequator. From my statement you wouldn't know if I was good at shooting or teaching, but thanks for giving me the benifit of the doubt about the shooting thing. Having done a bit of teaching, I still stand by the statement of being better off with an optic especially one that turns down real low, unless you have done a bunch of Iron shooting previously.

BTW one of the groups I have been working with as of late is using a 14.5" barreld AR-10 derivitive as an entry weapon because "it tends to work faster", and several of them sport TA-11s and an off-set red dot....and I make them cover over the dot off for about half the class, So your story about the guy with the AR-10 and TA-01 is music to my ears. If you want to know who I am just as Erik or Mike about "that Kurt guy" from Red-Neck Tactical.

On your ACOG is the sight cocked to the side or on top? I had mine at the 11 o'clock position and liked it for everything except doing week hand stuff. I got rid of it to avoid being in open class once I start doing some serious 3 gun stuff. For real world applications its pretty hard to beat the 2 optic setup.

 

[KurtM]

My ACOG has NO secondary DOT sight. The guys I train do.

I don't have a dominant eye so for me NOTHING beats either Iron sights or any SINGLE optic of any power. I can hose as fast with My TA-11 as any red dot sight made, BUT I don't like optics in general ( And I have had, or been given some the highest end optics available), I have never had a good one, and I don't care how much it costs or how high end it is it will eventually leave you behind at the very worst moment.

 

[Michael Brown]

Now I will throw out this little tidbit for all the "tactical" guys out there in training land....if a person doesn't have an exceptionally dominante eye he will be able to use almost ANY type of scope at almost any magnification up-close as fast as most folks use a dot. If you have a bad dominance problem the dot will be faster. If you aren't dominant and shoot irons nothing in the world will be faster.

Kurt,

If you have time, would you create a thread to expound upon this issue in either the training or rifle sub-forums?

I am interested in hearing more about this but prefer not to hijack this thread.

Michael Brown

 

[saryan]

Kurt,

If you have time, would you create a thread to expound upon this issue in either the training or rifle sub-forums?

I am interested in hearing more about this but prefer not to hijack this thread.

Michael Brown

I would be interested in that. I am cross dominate but I still use my right eye for scope work, left eye (dominant) for pistol.

 

[jtischauser]

Kurt,

If you have time, would you create a thread to expound upon this issue in either the training or rifle sub-forums?

I am interested in hearing more about this but prefer not to hijack this thread.

Michael Brown

I think what Kurt is saying is that he isn't really faster than everyone else he can just see better

I also think the only way to get Kurt to comment in a thread on eye dominance and the resultant shooting performance would be for someone to start the thread first and post the exact opposite of what he knows is true so that he can argue with them and ultimately prove them wrong and maybe even make them cry. This is how I have gotten information from him and yes I've cried