Obama's war on coal

[B Gordon]

When you say that I do not know much about electricity generated by coal, you are "specifically" correct because I am in the physical design and fabrication end of the whole process, not the bean counter part where the head office people decide which way to go. You are, by virtue of your sons being neck deep in the coal end of the argument, definitely and firmly stuck on one side of the discussion.
Here is a link to a good article that talks about the debate from an investor viewpoint, which is a very balanced point of view not specifically tied to either industry. There are literally hundreds of articles out there if you wish to do an internet search.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm...declines-even-as-natural-gas-prices-rise-eia/

I have cut and pasted the summary points of the article because it does a much better job of disagreeing with you than I could ever do. In a nutshell, as long as natural gas prices stay low (and they should due to fracking) natural gas IS competitive financially against coal.

1.Efficiency: The efficiency of power generation from gas means it competes with coal even when it costs 1.5 times as much. “When the ratio of natural gas prices to coal prices is approximately 1.5 or lower, a typical natural gas-fired combined-cycle plant has lower generating costs than a typical coal-fired plant.”

2.Competitiveness: “For new builds, natural gas and renewables generally are more competitive than coal.”

3.Flexibility: “In general, combined-cycle (gas) units are considered to be more flexible than steam turbines. They can ramp their output up and down more easily, and their start-up and shutdown procedures involve less time and expense.”

4.Regulation: “The interaction of fuel prices and environmental rules is a key factor in coal plant retirements. AEO2013 assumes that all coal-fired plants have flue gas desulfurization equipment (scrubbers) or dry sorbent injection systems installed by 2016 to comply with the Mercury and Air Toxics Standards. Higher coal prices, lower wholesale electricity prices (often tied to natural gas prices), and reduced use may make investment in such equipment uneconomical in some cases, resulting in plant retirements.”

Sorry but the below statement is clearly made by someone that does not know much about electricity generated by coal. Both my sons are mining engineers for large coal companies. Each has over 15 yrs in the business. Each has well defined and experienced knowledge in the generation of power using coal. One is in charge of 3 coal mines and a power plant. The other runs the largest surface coal mine east of the Mississippi. That said here is some information for you to cut your teeth on sir.

1. For each mega watt( I believe that is the term) of power it takes $4.80 to $6 of natural gas to generate it. For the same amount of coal it takes $1.18 Do the math and you will see what the public is facing. Now jump ahead to 10 yrs from now when natural gas could easily be $9 vs the 4.80 or so while the same coal contracts are still $1.18. Do the math. Consumers will take a hit like nothing they have ever seen.
2. The railroad industry will take a powerful hit when coal is replaced. My oldest son states the drop in revenue for them could easily reach 40% when the dust settles. Now the effects of it to Caterpillar, trucking which transports about 16% of the coal, support industries of all the mines that is currently contracted out, mineral rights to land owners, etc. The list goes on, and on.
3. Natural gas plants do emit co2 gasses. My oldest son is a member of the National Mining Institute's advisory counsel. They meet 4 times a yr in Washington with lobbyists. He will tell you this entire anti coal was "fueled" by Aubry Mc Clendon. He has poured multi millions into anti coal. He simply wants his empty pockets lined at any cost. You and I will surely do that. Our own governor in Oklahoma signed a directive closing the Oologah coal fired plant by 2020. The first boilers will close beginning 2016. She is in the back pocket of Mc Clendon. I can provide just about any information you want on Coal generated Electricity. Let me know what you need to know and my son can get it for you. Just please don't make uninformed statements about an industry you obviously know little about. I will be glad to help.

 

[crrcboatz]

When you say that I do not know much about electricity generated by coal, you are "specifically" correct because I am in the physical design and fabrication end of the whole process, not the bean counter part where the head office people decide which way to go. You are, by virtue of your sons being neck deep in the coal end of the argument, definitely and firmly stuck on one side of the discussion.
Here is a link to a good article that talks about the debate from an investor viewpoint, which is a very balanced point of view not specifically tied to either industry. There are literally hundreds of articles out there if you wish to do an internet search.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm...declines-even-as-natural-gas-prices-rise-eia/

I have cut and pasted the summary points of the article because it does a much better job of disagreeing with you than I could ever do. In a nutshell, as long as natural gas prices stay low (and they should due to fracking) natural gas IS competitive financially against coal.

1.Efficiency: The efficiency of power generation from gas means it competes with coal even when it costs 1.5 times as much. “When the ratio of natural gas prices to coal prices is approximately 1.5 or lower, a typical natural gas-fired combined-cycle plant has lower generating costs than a typical coal-fired plant.”

2.Competitiveness: “For new builds, natural gas and renewables generally are more competitive than coal.”

3.Flexibility: “In general, combined-cycle (gas) units are considered to be more flexible than steam turbines. They can ramp their output up and down more easily, and their start-up and shutdown procedures involve less time and expense.”

4.Regulation: “The interaction of fuel prices and environmental rules is a key factor in coal plant retirements. AEO2013 assumes that all coal-fired plants have flue gas desulfurization equipment (scrubbers) or dry sorbent injection systems installed by 2016 to comply with the Mercury and Air Toxics Standards. Higher coal prices, lower wholesale electricity prices (often tied to natural gas prices), and reduced use may make investment in such equipment uneconomical in some cases, resulting in plant retirements.”

What are the qualifications of Jeff Mc Mahon to make such "qualified"statements. I d sure hate to base any statements on an article until I was convinced the author was knowledgeable, qualified and unbiased in his pursuit of points to be made. My sons are qualified and are biased on the side of power generation for the future of this country. Oh and is there enough NG to last 600 yrs for the country sitting in one location? Also, the likelyhood of an upsurge in coal prices is FAR less than NG for future consumption. Supply alone takes care of that. Also you did not address the impact on other elements of this issue, ie the railroad industry, support industries, etc. I doubt Mr. Mc Mahon has expertise in those areas unless he is an unbiased economist that does not work for Forbes.

 

[crrcboatz]

Ah, Jeff Mc Mahon is an environmentalist!! He sir is as you say "neck deep" in tree hugging. His credentials, a journalist from the Univ. of Chicago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has NO background in the power industry. With that I doubt he can successfully talk with ANY command of how power in this country is produced in an unbiased tree hugging manner. My sons would eat him up like good candy in a debate. This guy is a want a b period. Here read about him

http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffmcmahonchi

OSA here is your tree hugging expert on coal power. What a joke for expertise.

 

[B Gordon]

I am done disagreeing with you.

How about something we can agree on.

Government regulations are bringing about the switch from coal fired to natural gas fired.

 

[CHenry]

CNG at the car pumps has already doubled in price since last year with the popularity of CNG vehicles rolling off the assembly line.
They are currently building ships in houston ports to haul CNG to the world market. When that's complete the price will sore. Invest in it now.
Sent from outer space or somewhere from my mobile device

 

[crrcboatz]

I am done disagreeing with you.

How about something we can agree on.

Government regulations are bringing about the switch from coal fired to natural gas fired.

I will agree with you that OBAMA's government is trying to bring about such change. Replace him and we can stop this senseless nonsense. He sir will surely be replaced too. Get a Republican in that seat and all this will surely change too.

 

[CHenry]

Get a Republican in that seat and all this will surely change too.

your joking... right?


Sent from outer space or somewhere from my mobile device

 

[crrcboatz]

Well at least not intended. It seems democrats strongly support anti coal. The republican side of this is generally presumed to be supportive of a balanced approach to energy production. Maybe I should have not been so presumptuous??????? Help me out here CH.

 

[CHenry]

Both parties are bought and paid for by whichever corporation coughs up the most cash to there campaign. Its my "guess", the coal industry isn't as financially able to pad the right pockets as Exxon, BP, Chesapeake and others in the petroleum industry and so we have a push for NG usage in cars and powerplants. Its got nothing to do with climate change but is being driven by it.

Sent from outer space or somewhere from my mobile device

 

[crrcboatz]

For me personally a change to a Republican in the WH could not hurt coal near as much as what this guy in the WH has. That is good enough for me.