12 Gauge Darts

[RickN]

"The rounds I have fired did well in penetrating brush at short range."
What did they penetrate after the brush Rick? Just curious, BTW rock salt penetrated brush fairly well as does 00 and #4 Buck and it will penetrate other stuff as well. The designation for the Flechette round was XM 258 and I have fired several of them, as well as some of the commercial junk. The XM 258 did fly a bit straighter, but it's terminal effects are almost non existent. Certainly NOT the hype you read on line. Here is from Wikipedia

Flechettes​

Plastic cases loaded with small steel darts called flechettes were issued on a limited trial basis during the Vietnam war. Cartridges manufactured by Western Cartridge Company contained twenty flechettes 18.5 millimeters (0.73 in) long and weighing 7.3 grains (0.47 g) each. The flechettes were packed in a plastic cup with granulated white polyethylene to maintain alignment with the bore axis, and supported by a metal disk to prevent penetration of the over-powder wad during acceleration down the bore. Cartridges manufactured by Federal Cartridge Company contained 25 flechettes. Tips of the flechettes are exposed in the Federal cartridges, but concealed by a conventional star crimp in Western cartridges. Flechettes had flatter trajectory over longer ranges than spherical buckshot, but combat effectiveness did not justify continued production. Note the weight of the dart!

Here is an excerpt from a D.O.D. publication on small arms munitions effectiveness from 1975. I assume U.S. Navy tests were U.D.T/ SEALS, but that is a guess on my part.

The U.S. Navy first tested XM 258 flechette rounds during the Vietnam War, but found that XM 162 and XM 257 buckshot had far more immediate stopping power. (XM162 is 00 buck and XM 257 is #4 buck, now designated as M 162 and M257)

Well after tearing thru the brush, they completely tore up a rabbit. The few others were just fired at junk. Plastic bottles, etc. As I said, they tore thru the brush just fine. I never even hinted they were used on a person by me.

 

[KurtM]

I didn't even begin to take it that way Rick! How far away was the rabbit? BTW how does that Mini Shoot?

 

[RickN]

I didn't even begin to take it that way Rick! How far away was the rabbit? BTW how does that Mini Shoot?

Rabbit was maybe 10 yards or a little less. I have only gotten to fire the Mini 14 twice so far. First time was just a few rounds at a friends house and it did ok. 2nd time was at the ENS and I had problems. I think I figured out what was causing most of the problems and I hope to go to the gun club early next week when it cools off some to test my theory.

 

[C_Hallbert]

Only meant to wound at 10-15 yards then finish the job with sidearm and 230 grain Hardball.

Rogers’ Rangers Standing Orders:
19. Let the enemy come till he's almost close enough to touch. Then let him have it and jump out and finish him with your hatchet.

 

[Gunbuffer]

"The rounds I have fired did well in penetrating brush at short range."
What did they penetrate after the brush Rick? Just curious, BTW rock salt penetrated brush fairly well as does 00 and #4 Buck and it will penetrate other stuff as well. The designation for the Flechette round was XM 258 and I have fired several of them, as well as some of the commercial junk. The XM 258 did fly a bit straighter, but it's terminal effects are almost non existent. Certainly NOT the hype you read on line. Here is from Wikipedia

Flechettes​

Plastic cases loaded with small steel darts called flechettes were issued on a limited trial basis during the Vietnam war. Cartridges manufactured by Western Cartridge Company contained twenty flechettes 18.5 millimeters (0.73 in) long and weighing 7.3 grains (0.47 g) each. The flechettes were packed in a plastic cup with granulated white polyethylene to maintain alignment with the bore axis, and supported by a metal disk to prevent penetration of the over-powder wad during acceleration down the bore. Cartridges manufactured by Federal Cartridge Company contained 25 flechettes. Tips of the flechettes are exposed in the Federal cartridges, but concealed by a conventional star crimp in Western cartridges. Flechettes had flatter trajectory over longer ranges than spherical buckshot, but combat effectiveness did not justify continued production. Note the weight of the dart!

Here is an excerpt from a D.O.D. publication on small arms munitions effectiveness from 1975. I assume U.S. Navy tests were U.D.T/ SEALS, but that is a guess on my part.

The U.S. Navy first tested XM 258 flechette rounds during the Vietnam War, but found that XM 162 and XM 257 buckshot had far more immediate stopping power. (XM162 is 00 buck and XM 257 is #4 buck, now designated as M 162 and M257)

‘Tish!! You’re speaking French again

 

[Tinytim]

And later in other places with thick brush. I do not know if the military still uses them but if you have a 12 ga you should have some.

We used them in Panama

 

[dennishoddy]

For those of you thinking these would be "bad"...... You would be right! THEY SUCK! I have shot both the military and civilian copies of this round. They won't even penetrate a 2X4 and very few fly straight. If I were behind a sheet of drywall I would be plenty armored if you shot from 5 yards away. You are far better served with Buckshot.

True, but you should see what devastation out of a 105 howitzer these can do, commonly used in CQC in Vietnam. I know your history, you probably shot some.

 

[Gunbuffer]

True, but you should see what devastation out of a 105 howitzer these can do, commonly used in CQC in Vietnam. I know your history, you probably shot some.

He was more Korean era

 

[Seadog]

In 1976 while attending a Fort Riley Battalion Live Fire Demonstration, they set up 300 man sized M-16 rifle targets 100 yards in front of a battery of 3 105 howitzers. They called them OPFOR. They then proceeded to shoot 105 flechette rounds into the targets. One round per gun. There wasn't one target without 200 holes in it. Then they really let loose with air and ground forces. I was glad I was not on the receiving end of that.

I was going to post that these were probably for artillery shells but your post beat me to it. I’ve only read about them. I remember seeing them many years ago and thought about trying to load some up but then also read about how they were not very effective. Like your post I do recall them being artillery anti-personnel and anything coming out of a howitzer is gonna feck ***** up. I imagine with all the extra powder inside the shell that would help disperse these little beehive *******oes.

Here’s a link for anybody else that’s curious about them. Beehive anti-personnel round - Wikipedia

 

[Seadog]

Rabbit was maybe 10 yards or a little less. I have only gotten to fire the Mini 14 twice so far. First time was just a few rounds at a friends house and it did ok. 2nd time was at the ENS and I had problems. I think I figured out what was causing most of the problems and I hope to go to the gun club early next week when it cools off some to test my theory.

If your mini 14 is having problems, if you have aftermarket mags that is probably the culprit. For some reason not many people make good aftermarket magazines for them.