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1st Hunting Rifle
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<blockquote data-quote="Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow" data-source="post: 1400611" data-attributes="member: 7123"><p>My kind of thread. I'm gonna assume that you want to be ready for anything in North America, including Bison, Yak, Moose, and Brown Bear. I'm also gonna assume that you very well might take up reloading, if you don't already. Next, take what I say with a grain of salt - yes I have read a lot and hunted quite a bit, but I'm far from an expert hunter. Finally, of course, we live and learn. My views 10 years from now will likely change, just as they've changed a bit in the last 10 years. The more time that goes by, the more I'm leaning toward lighter, shorter, and less recoiling. <img src="/images/smilies/smile.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, action type: Seems you've settled on a turnbolt - excellent choice, and would be my recommendation as well, for a variety of reasons.</p><p></p><p>Next, chambering - my recommendations, <strong><em>in order</em></strong> of preference:</p><p></p><p><strong>1. .280 Rem</strong></p><p><strong>2. .270 Win</strong></p><p>3. .30-06 spfld</p><p>4. 7mm-08 Rem or 7x57 mauser</p><p>5. 6.5x55 Swede</p><p>6. .260 Rem</p><p>7. .308 Win</p><p>8. 7mm Rem Mag</p><p>9. .338 Federal</p><p>10. .30-30 Win</p><p>11. .338-'06 A-square</p><p>12. .35 Whelen or 9.3x62mm</p><p>13. 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC</p><p>14. 7.62x39mm</p><p>15. All others, <em>including any .300 maggie</em> or .338 maggie</p><p></p><p>[My beloved .243 Win round is out due to my assumption that you want to handle bison, moose, brownies, etc. - though it would work for them too, in a pinch, with the right twist rate and bullet].</p><p></p><p>I'd highly recommend sticking with one of the first two bolded choices, or maybe .30-06. Without going into all the "whys", suffice it to say that these 3 are the best time-tested and proven "goldilocks" rounds. Go with .270 win if you must have extremely common/cheap ammo. Go with .280 if you don't (if you handload). .280 Rem has 99.44% of the performance of the 7mm RM, <em>for all practical intents and purposes</em> at actual hunting ranges, without all the powder cost, brass cost, recoil, and without the stupid belt! .30-06 is never a mistake either. Not quite the versatility of the 6.8 or 7mm rounds due to poorer BCs, but with an incredibly good bullet selection and off-the-shelf ammo selection, including the really heavies, it almost makes up for it, and will re-sell better & faster than a .280, or even a .270. </p><p></p><p>But please realize (if you don't) that while important, this chambering choice is by far the LEAST important of the considerations here - the rifle, glass, and rings are all more important, IMO. The most important aspect of chambering, besides trajectory, is low recoil, so that you're comfortable shooting lots of rounds, so that you have a situation that fosters wanting to shoot and therefore proficiency. So I definitely would not get anything that recoils more than .30-06 or 7mm RM - as someone said, it's really unnecessary overkill for anything in North America. Besides, .280 rem and 7mm RM have better trajectories than even a .300 maggies, in most hunting bullet weights, so why ever bother with a .300 maggie? If you want a real thumper with a good trajectory, the .35 Whelen, .338-06, and .338 federal are easier on the shoulder than a .300 maggie, and cause less bloodshot meat. Just not a fan of them anymore.... especially since the shoulder injury.</p><p></p><p>Don't get too wrapped around the axle about expansion, penetration, and killing power (or gawdsakes about "energy"). With modern bullet construction and bullet choices out there, with ANY of these chamberings, you can always find a bullet construction and weight which *matches* your chosen round's velocity, to give you appropriate tradeoffs of penetration and expansion, for your chosen game, whatever it may be. I.e. A .260 rem, with correct bullet choice and shot choice/placement, will kill the largest american game deader than doornail, and just as dead as a .50 bmg would.</p><p></p><p>Next, rifle: Your budget is quite low, for what I'm now partial & accustomed to (now), but it's enough to get a "good quality" game-killin tool. But you're gonna have to go low-ish budget rifle to get decent glass (have enough $$ left). That means T/C Venture, low-end Howa/Vanguard, low-end Savage or Stevens, or maybe a Rem 700 SPS (though I don't think you can get the SPS with a hunting-weight barrel, can you?).</p><p></p><p>Of those, the <strong>T/C Venture </strong>offers the best value, though I wouldn't rule out a Howa or Savage or Stevens. You're probably gonna be limited to the plastic / rubber stocks, to keep the gun price low enough to get decent-good glass and rings. Does the budget include tax/shipping? Include Sling? Rings? Ammo? Willing to by used, or new only? It all makes a difference. </p><p></p><p>Definitely check out the Venture though. 5R rifling and a number of other nice features, like a heavy duty bolt/lugs, and 60 degree bolt throw. But very importantly is how the rifle fits you, so check out Howa/Vanguard, Savage, Stevens, maybe used CZ 550 if the Venture doesn't "feel" right to you when you shoulder it while scoped. Also extremely important is the *weight* of the rifle - how far are you gonna be packing it, and what's your level of shape & strength? Gonna take it out West to mountainous areas? Unfortunately, your budget is precluding really light ultralights, so I'm gonna assume you're reasonably young & in shape with my Venture recommendations. As a slight bonus, while ugly, the plastic stock does make the heavy-leaning Venture a bit lighter than the more expensive wood-stocked Icon or other wood-stocked guns, economy or otherwise. So, two birds with one stone there with the Venture, or a plastic-stocked Howa/Vanguard/Savage, in the event you have to track long distances, and/or up and down hills. The Howas with the rubber stocks are really nice and grippy, excellent values, and come in some interesting chamberings, like 6.5x55 (one of my favorites). The Savages can be had in 7mm-08, which is an excellent all-purpose chambering.</p><p></p><p>Next, glass. With your "minimum-maximum" magnif criteria, that leaves pretty much only one choice within your budget - the <strong>Elite 6500 2.5-16x42mm</strong>. You've *got* to keep a "minimum-minumum" magnif of no more than 2.5 or 3, for the woods / walking game, and only the Elite 6500 offers the adjustment range that can take in both. I *will* be replacing the Monarch 4-16x42 with an Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 on my turnbolt as soon as I can get it and swap. The 4 power is just not low enough for close-in / quick acquisition. </p><p></p><p>Talley rings, or maybe Warne or Leupold in a pinch.</p><p></p><p>Glass: $715 delivered (ebay)</p><p>Rifle: $450ish, give or take, plus shipping or tax, plus FFL fee.</p><p></p><p>Leaves you a smidge for the rings - just do it right the first time and get Talley one-piece.</p><p></p><p>Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.</p><p></p><p>If you were to ditch the "minimum-maximum" of 12 requirement, and go with 9 or 10 instead, which is what I would recommend, then my recommendations would be <em><strong>completely</strong></em> different. You could spend half of the elite 6500's cost on a scope, and free up enough money for your rifle to be *really* good (meaning Icon, Mark V, Browning, Winchester, Steyr, Sako, Kimber, particularly if you go used), instead of just "good" -- OR, get same economy-ish rifle with better glass in a 3-9x40 config, which are cheaper for the glass quality than something with the adjustment range of the Elite 6500. Though the 6500 is no slouch at all in glass quality, and is both an excellent choice for an all-purpose hunting rig scope, and in fact my choice (the 2.5-16x42 one), for my do-it-all rifle. Well, I say that - not really true - it would be perfect (on a budget), but-for the side focus. Wish they would lose the SF and have a fixed parallax-free setting. But other than than, it would be perfect. As it stands, it's still a very good choice - you normally have time in the field to adjust the focus properly when setting up an ambush or doing a stalk of some kind. P.S. If you do go with the Icon (fantastic rifle and best value in the upper end), then my ring recommendation will switch from Talley to Leupold PRW, since these rifles have built-in rails (though Talleys for rails are good rings too).</p><p></p><p></p><p>FWIW, I've have two .280s now - my do all rifle is a Mark V Ultra Lightweight in .280 with some customizations. The 6.5x55mm swedish is the other true goldilocks round besides .270 and .280 - in my view. .270 *would be* the shiz-nizzle if they'd make more & better bullet choices for it. As it stands, the .280 does everything the .270 will do (except be found in stores), but a lot better. The 7mm bullets really hit the sweet spot of BC, all along the weight spectrum, and the .30-06-cased family of rounds hits a sweet spot of efficiency in rounds over 6.5mm.</p><p></p><p>And I must strongly disagree with my friend, the learned and experienced Deer Slayer - the last thing on earth you want on a hunting gun is one of them there loudeners, *especially* on a maggie - unless you know you're gonna die young. When you reach old age, well - tinnitus is a *****, and your spouse, kids and grandkids will likely strangle you after a few years of you saying "what" and "huh" to them 100 times/day, not to mention making you miserable in your golden years. Take a bit more pounding on the shoulder to avoid this - well worth it. It only takes ONE unprotected shot with a loudener to permanently damage yourself, with damage that won't reveal itself until decades later. Shoulders can be fixed. Tinnitus can't.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow, post: 1400611, member: 7123"] My kind of thread. I'm gonna assume that you want to be ready for anything in North America, including Bison, Yak, Moose, and Brown Bear. I'm also gonna assume that you very well might take up reloading, if you don't already. Next, take what I say with a grain of salt - yes I have read a lot and hunted quite a bit, but I'm far from an expert hunter. Finally, of course, we live and learn. My views 10 years from now will likely change, just as they've changed a bit in the last 10 years. The more time that goes by, the more I'm leaning toward lighter, shorter, and less recoiling. :) First, action type: Seems you've settled on a turnbolt - excellent choice, and would be my recommendation as well, for a variety of reasons. Next, chambering - my recommendations, [B][I]in order[/I][/B] of preference: [B]1. .280 Rem 2. .270 Win[/B] 3. .30-06 spfld 4. 7mm-08 Rem or 7x57 mauser 5. 6.5x55 Swede 6. .260 Rem 7. .308 Win 8. 7mm Rem Mag 9. .338 Federal 10. .30-30 Win 11. .338-'06 A-square 12. .35 Whelen or 9.3x62mm 13. 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC 14. 7.62x39mm 15. All others, [I]including any .300 maggie[/I] or .338 maggie [My beloved .243 Win round is out due to my assumption that you want to handle bison, moose, brownies, etc. - though it would work for them too, in a pinch, with the right twist rate and bullet]. I'd highly recommend sticking with one of the first two bolded choices, or maybe .30-06. Without going into all the "whys", suffice it to say that these 3 are the best time-tested and proven "goldilocks" rounds. Go with .270 win if you must have extremely common/cheap ammo. Go with .280 if you don't (if you handload). .280 Rem has 99.44% of the performance of the 7mm RM, [I]for all practical intents and purposes[/I] at actual hunting ranges, without all the powder cost, brass cost, recoil, and without the stupid belt! .30-06 is never a mistake either. Not quite the versatility of the 6.8 or 7mm rounds due to poorer BCs, but with an incredibly good bullet selection and off-the-shelf ammo selection, including the really heavies, it almost makes up for it, and will re-sell better & faster than a .280, or even a .270. But please realize (if you don't) that while important, this chambering choice is by far the LEAST important of the considerations here - the rifle, glass, and rings are all more important, IMO. The most important aspect of chambering, besides trajectory, is low recoil, so that you're comfortable shooting lots of rounds, so that you have a situation that fosters wanting to shoot and therefore proficiency. So I definitely would not get anything that recoils more than .30-06 or 7mm RM - as someone said, it's really unnecessary overkill for anything in North America. Besides, .280 rem and 7mm RM have better trajectories than even a .300 maggies, in most hunting bullet weights, so why ever bother with a .300 maggie? If you want a real thumper with a good trajectory, the .35 Whelen, .338-06, and .338 federal are easier on the shoulder than a .300 maggie, and cause less bloodshot meat. Just not a fan of them anymore.... especially since the shoulder injury. Don't get too wrapped around the axle about expansion, penetration, and killing power (or gawdsakes about "energy"). With modern bullet construction and bullet choices out there, with ANY of these chamberings, you can always find a bullet construction and weight which *matches* your chosen round's velocity, to give you appropriate tradeoffs of penetration and expansion, for your chosen game, whatever it may be. I.e. A .260 rem, with correct bullet choice and shot choice/placement, will kill the largest american game deader than doornail, and just as dead as a .50 bmg would. Next, rifle: Your budget is quite low, for what I'm now partial & accustomed to (now), but it's enough to get a "good quality" game-killin tool. But you're gonna have to go low-ish budget rifle to get decent glass (have enough $$ left). That means T/C Venture, low-end Howa/Vanguard, low-end Savage or Stevens, or maybe a Rem 700 SPS (though I don't think you can get the SPS with a hunting-weight barrel, can you?). Of those, the [B]T/C Venture [/B]offers the best value, though I wouldn't rule out a Howa or Savage or Stevens. You're probably gonna be limited to the plastic / rubber stocks, to keep the gun price low enough to get decent-good glass and rings. Does the budget include tax/shipping? Include Sling? Rings? Ammo? Willing to by used, or new only? It all makes a difference. Definitely check out the Venture though. 5R rifling and a number of other nice features, like a heavy duty bolt/lugs, and 60 degree bolt throw. But very importantly is how the rifle fits you, so check out Howa/Vanguard, Savage, Stevens, maybe used CZ 550 if the Venture doesn't "feel" right to you when you shoulder it while scoped. Also extremely important is the *weight* of the rifle - how far are you gonna be packing it, and what's your level of shape & strength? Gonna take it out West to mountainous areas? Unfortunately, your budget is precluding really light ultralights, so I'm gonna assume you're reasonably young & in shape with my Venture recommendations. As a slight bonus, while ugly, the plastic stock does make the heavy-leaning Venture a bit lighter than the more expensive wood-stocked Icon or other wood-stocked guns, economy or otherwise. So, two birds with one stone there with the Venture, or a plastic-stocked Howa/Vanguard/Savage, in the event you have to track long distances, and/or up and down hills. The Howas with the rubber stocks are really nice and grippy, excellent values, and come in some interesting chamberings, like 6.5x55 (one of my favorites). The Savages can be had in 7mm-08, which is an excellent all-purpose chambering. Next, glass. With your "minimum-maximum" magnif criteria, that leaves pretty much only one choice within your budget - the [B]Elite 6500 2.5-16x42mm[/B]. You've *got* to keep a "minimum-minumum" magnif of no more than 2.5 or 3, for the woods / walking game, and only the Elite 6500 offers the adjustment range that can take in both. I *will* be replacing the Monarch 4-16x42 with an Elite 6500 2.5-16x42 on my turnbolt as soon as I can get it and swap. The 4 power is just not low enough for close-in / quick acquisition. Talley rings, or maybe Warne or Leupold in a pinch. Glass: $715 delivered (ebay) Rifle: $450ish, give or take, plus shipping or tax, plus FFL fee. Leaves you a smidge for the rings - just do it right the first time and get Talley one-piece. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out. If you were to ditch the "minimum-maximum" of 12 requirement, and go with 9 or 10 instead, which is what I would recommend, then my recommendations would be [I][B]completely[/B][/I] different. You could spend half of the elite 6500's cost on a scope, and free up enough money for your rifle to be *really* good (meaning Icon, Mark V, Browning, Winchester, Steyr, Sako, Kimber, particularly if you go used), instead of just "good" -- OR, get same economy-ish rifle with better glass in a 3-9x40 config, which are cheaper for the glass quality than something with the adjustment range of the Elite 6500. Though the 6500 is no slouch at all in glass quality, and is both an excellent choice for an all-purpose hunting rig scope, and in fact my choice (the 2.5-16x42 one), for my do-it-all rifle. Well, I say that - not really true - it would be perfect (on a budget), but-for the side focus. Wish they would lose the SF and have a fixed parallax-free setting. But other than than, it would be perfect. As it stands, it's still a very good choice - you normally have time in the field to adjust the focus properly when setting up an ambush or doing a stalk of some kind. P.S. If you do go with the Icon (fantastic rifle and best value in the upper end), then my ring recommendation will switch from Talley to Leupold PRW, since these rifles have built-in rails (though Talleys for rails are good rings too). FWIW, I've have two .280s now - my do all rifle is a Mark V Ultra Lightweight in .280 with some customizations. The 6.5x55mm swedish is the other true goldilocks round besides .270 and .280 - in my view. .270 *would be* the shiz-nizzle if they'd make more & better bullet choices for it. As it stands, the .280 does everything the .270 will do (except be found in stores), but a lot better. The 7mm bullets really hit the sweet spot of BC, all along the weight spectrum, and the .30-06-cased family of rounds hits a sweet spot of efficiency in rounds over 6.5mm. And I must strongly disagree with my friend, the learned and experienced Deer Slayer - the last thing on earth you want on a hunting gun is one of them there loudeners, *especially* on a maggie - unless you know you're gonna die young. When you reach old age, well - tinnitus is a *****, and your spouse, kids and grandkids will likely strangle you after a few years of you saying "what" and "huh" to them 100 times/day, not to mention making you miserable in your golden years. Take a bit more pounding on the shoulder to avoid this - well worth it. It only takes ONE unprotected shot with a loudener to permanently damage yourself, with damage that won't reveal itself until decades later. Shoulders can be fixed. Tinnitus can't. [/QUOTE]
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