Info for you to use when people claim the US was founded as a christian nation

[71buickfreak]

Of course I'm the one with a flawed vision because mine doesn't line up with yours.

I wonder if there were any Israelites who were saying the same thing as you just said right before they went into captivity 70 years for not following God's laws. America was founded as a Christian nation. In Feb, 29, 1892, the Supreme Court stated, America is a Christian Nation. George Washington after his first inaugural address to the senate as the first president of the United States, directly after, they marched to the small church to dedicate this nation to God. Interestingly, that church still stands today, that church on that day sat on the same property where the Twin Towers fell. America (Christian's included) have turned their back on God just like the Israelites did. Our President, the Supreme Court speaks for us all. America is living on borrowed time. Something is about to break, possibly this month being the end of the Shemitah year and if you have read The Harbinger or the Mystery of the Shemitah you would know what I talking about. On a certain level, I hope this is wrong, but on another level, I hope it's right because whatever it might be, we deserve what's coming to us.

Look around those who say they can't wait until the Christians are gone, you do not know what you are asking for.

BTW, believing in God does not make you a Christian.

Feel free to bring this back up in October to throw it in my face, but from things I have been reading and seeing take place, I never felt more strongly about something like this. And no, I didn't think twice about Y2K, or 2012 and the Mayan calendar, and I didn't follow Harold Camping.

You are not wrong because you don't agree with me, you are wrong because you are factually wrong. A man can be religious and preside over a secular nation, which is what was intended. Just because someone believes in god does not mean they wanted the country to be ruled from the bible. James Madison said that the US was founded in nature, not supernatural beings, and regardless of how you feel, god is a supernatural being by definition. I am Christian and I have no problem with saying any of this. I am fully aware that believing in god does not make one a Christian, that is half of the point I have been making here. Jews, muslims, Christians, deists, all the same god, just different versions of the same book. That is why we have so many problems in this world. Your religion may not be the right one for steve, his may not be the one for you, yet you think steve should believe and worship the way you do, and steve hates you because you believe in a different set of rules. All the more reason for the country to be secular in nature, as opposed to endorsing one religion over another. can prove without a shadow of a doubt what the founders intended, through their own words, not interpretation. Your justification for the saying the US is a Christian nation is based solely on "well GW went to church after being sworn in, and he thanked god for stuff, and one ruling had the word Christian in it as an opinion by a justice", that is not proof, it is conjecture at best. The treaty of Tripoli clearly states that the US is a secular nation populated by religious men. That is pretty damn clear. Nobody is saying to kick out the Christians, why would you think that? How does the basis of the country being founded in the laws of nature and equality mean that Christians are unwanted? Please explain.

To your supreme court ruling- Justice Brewer did in fact write the following- These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. 143 U.S. 457 (1892)

HOWEVER, in 1905 Justice Brewer clarified that statement in his book, because it caused some confusion. He said-
"But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Nevertheless, we constantly speak of this republic as a Christian Nation--in fact, as the leading Christian Nation of the world. This popular use of the term certainly has significance. It is not a mere creation of the imagination. It is not a term of derision but has substantial basis--one which justifies its use."

So, Justice Brewer's statement also clarifies my original statement. This is a secular nation populated by religious men. The people of this country are overwhelmingly Christian, the laws, constitution and rules of government are secular in order to encompass people of all religions. Why is that a problem?

 

[lee1000]

Here is some documentation that should help you in your quest to enlighten those that believe the US was founded as a Christian nation.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/early-america-review/volume-2/secular-government/



A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, “No more than 10 percent– probably less– of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations.”

The Founding Fathers, also, rarely practiced Christian orthodoxy. Although they supported the free exercise of any religion, they understood the dangers of religion. Most of them believed in deism and attended Freemasonry lodges. According to John J. Robinson, “Freemasonry had been a powerful force for religious freedom.” Freemasons took seriously the principle that men should worship according to their own conscience. Masonry welcomed anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.

The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, “the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety.”

George Washington

Much of the myth of Washington’s alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, “Life of Washington.” The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington’s own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington’s initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man “ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.”

After Washington’s death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington’s religion replied, “Sir, Washington was a Deist.”

Thomas Jefferson

Even most Christians do not consider Jefferson a Christian. In many of his letters, he denounced the superstitions of Christianity. He did not believe in spiritual souls, angels or godly miracles. Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, “Question with boldness even the existence of a god.”

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, “You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.”


John Adams
John Adams



John Adams

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: “I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination.”

In his, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

“. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

James Madison

Called the father of the Constitution, Madison had no conventional sense of Christianity. In 1785, Madison wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments:

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”

“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”

Benjamin Franklin

Although Franklin received religious training, his nature forced him to rebel against the irrational tenets of his parents Christianity. His Autobiography revels his skepticism, “My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.

“. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist.”

In an essay on “Toleration,” Franklin wrote:

“If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England.”

Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him:

“It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin’s general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers” (Priestley’s Autobiography)

Thomas Paine

This freethinker and author of several books, influenced more early Americans than any other writer. Although he held Deist beliefs, he wrote in his famous The Age of Reason:

“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. “

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. “

This country will always have a dominant religion. I'm an atheist but fully support Christians because I know people will always gravitate to one or the other. Any and all vacuums are filled with something.

Now I challenge you to pick a religion for this country that is successful in evangelism.

 

[71buickfreak]

This country will always have a dominant religion. I'm an atheist but fully support Christians because I know people will always gravitate to one or the other. Any and all vacuums are filled with something.

Now I challenge you to pick a religion for this country that is successful in evangelism.

That is the point though, the legal entity of government is not interested in religion, it is impartial to religion, a government does not worship, a person does. The people in the country can be religious, but the governing body, the rules and laws are based in natural law, not the bible or other religious text. Sometimes, often in fact, those laws intersect, but they are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. This country is predominantly populated by persons of the Christian faith, but as far as the laws are concerned, that doesn't matter. We stand up and fight against Sharia law, but what do you think bible-based laws are? literally the same thing, which is why there has to be separation.

 

[Street Rat]

You are not wrong because you don't agree with me, you are wrong because you are factually wrong. A man can be religious and preside over a secular nation, which is what was intended. Just because someone believes in god does not mean they wanted the country to be ruled from the bible. James Madison said that the US was founded in nature, not supernatural beings, and regardless of how you feel, god is a supernatural being by definition. I am Christian and I have no problem with saying any of this. I am fully aware that believing in god does not make one a Christian, that is half of the point I have been making here. Jews, muslims, Christians, deists, all the same god, just different versions of the same book. That is why we have so many problems in this world. Your religion may not be the right one for steve, his may not be the one for you, yet you think steve should believe and worship the way you do, and steve hates you because you believe in a different set of rules. All the more reason for the country to be secular in nature, as opposed to endorsing one religion over another. can prove without a shadow of a doubt what the founders intended, through their own words, not interpretation. Your justification for the saying the US is a Christian nation is based solely on "well GW went to church after being sworn in, and he thanked god for stuff, and one ruling had the word Christian in it as an opinion by a justice", that is not proof, it is conjecture at best. The treaty of Tripoli clearly states that the US is a secular nation populated by religious men. That is pretty damn clear. Nobody is saying to kick out the Christians, why would you think that? How does the basis of the country being founded in the laws of nature and equality mean that Christians are unwanted? Please explain.

To your supreme court ruling- Justice Brewer did in fact write the following- These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. 143 U.S. 457 (1892)

HOWEVER, in 1905 Justice Brewer clarified that statement in his book, because it caused some confusion. He said-
"But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Nevertheless, we constantly speak of this republic as a Christian Nation--in fact, as the leading Christian Nation of the world. This popular use of the term certainly has significance. It is not a mere creation of the imagination. It is not a term of derision but has substantial basis--one which justifies its use."

So, Justice Brewer's statement also clarifies my original statement. This is a secular nation populated by religious men. The people of this country are overwhelmingly Christian, the laws, constitution and rules of government are secular in order to encompass people of all religions. Why is that a problem?

I get what you're saying. You see it one way and I see it another. I'm not going to take this to a point it doesn't need to go. I think there are way more important things to be discussing right now on how this country began, not when you can see where it is going. I tip my hat to you sir, you are more skilled debater than I (no sarcasm intended).

In other news, did you see the story about Russian military buildup in Syria That's north of Israel isn't it?

 

[Fredkrueger100]

Who cares if we were or not. The fact remains that the further away we get from God the more down the toilet we will go.

 

[71buickfreak]

I get what you're saying. You see it one way and I see it another. I'm not going to take this to a point it doesn't need to go. I think there are way more important things to be discussing right now on how this country began, not when you can see where it is going. I tip my hat to you sir, you are more skilled debater than I (no sarcasm intended).

In other news, did you see the story about Russian military buildup in Syria That's north of Israel isn't it?

I am not a lawyer, but i have been known to play one it traffic court!

 

[OKCHunter]

Who cares if we were or not. The fact remains that the further away we get from God the more down the toilet we will go.

This ^^^

 

[John6185]

It's not worth an argument especially when God created the United States specifically for us.

 

[mightymouse]

It's not worth an argument especially when God created the United States specifically for us.

I'm not familar with that bible verse. Can you cite it for us?

 

[John6185]

I'm not familar with that bible verse. Can you cite it for us?

Falopians 8:16 NIV