Little Rock Police investigate shooting death

[doctorjj]

What is hard to understand??? Officers routinely take security jobs when away from their real job. Especially at apt complexes because they usually get discounted rent for providing that service.

If you were patrolling and saw an apartment in disarray, would you not go in and try to check the welfare of the tenant? What was the tenant on that made him so crazy is a better question.

No, I would not go in, even if the door was open. And if I did and a scuffle broke out, I would try to get back out, not fight back and eventually pull my gun and kill someone.

 

[MyMonkey]

Like if you are a plumber for example I can tell how the plumber came to my house and didnt snake my line right and two days later I had to call him again cause he didnt push the blockage all the way down the line. Just sayin.

Oh man! I am like a kid in a candy store! I can't resist. This just reeks (pun) of a sexual interlube (intentional misspelling for effect) between you and the plumber! LMAO

Comparing a plumber not doing his job well to someone coming into someone else's home and ultimately killing the guy are not even in the same ballpark. And yes, I am a doctor, so any doctor horror stories you want to post on here, feel free.

I have a bunch of those.

Oddly enough, this does happen. In fact, I used to do Security at a local complex. A few actually when I was working in LE. Sucked though as people would page me at all hours for stupid stuff. Had a friend that did the same thing. He did just what was mentioned above. He noticed a door ajar and the interior messed up just to discover a dead lady inside who had been murdered etc. Sounds rare but it does happen.

 

[Dave70968]

What is hard to understand??? Officers routinely take security jobs when away from their real job. Especially at apt complexes because they usually get discounted rent for providing that service.

If you were patrolling and saw an apartment in disarray, would you not go in and try to check the welfare of the tenant? What was the tenant on that made him so crazy is a better question.

Since this is an Oklahoma shooter's board, I'll answer in the context of Oklahoma.

I dunno; I suppose I'd consider that question in the context of three others:

1. When I'm working as a private citizen, where's my right to enter private property?
2. Where's my right to start shooting after such trespass?
3. What does Oklahoma Statutes Title 21, Section 1289.25 say about the homeowner's assumptions when I enter his private residence without legal authority to do so?

The law would seem to suggest that, were the situation reversed, the (Oklahoma) resident of the apartment would be justified in shooting the (private-citizen) intruders, not vice-versa.

 

[Dave70968]

Ive got an idea DD. Why dont you tell us on here what you do for a living. Then well dig up obscure storys of how someone in that particular line of work screwed up and we can all jump in. Like if you are a plumber for example I can tell how the plumber came to my house and didnt snake my line right and two days later I had to call him again cause he didnt push the blockage all the way down the line. Just sayin.

Great. I fix broken computers. Why don't you start by pointing to the dead bodies resulting from my mistakes. Bonus points if you can find some from when I'm off-duty.


I think I'm going to like this game.

 

[Danny]

Since this is an Oklahoma shooter's board, I'll answer in the context of Oklahoma.

I dunno; I suppose I'd consider that question in the context of three others:

1. When I'm working as a private citizen, where's my right to enter private property?
2. Where's my right to start shooting after such trespass?
3. What does Oklahoma Statutes Title 21, Section 1289.25 say about the homeowner's assumptions when I enter his private residence without legal authority to do so?

The law would seem to suggest that, were the situation reversed, the (Oklahoma) resident of the apartment would be justified in shooting the (private-citizen) intruders, not vice-versa.

#1: The employing agency gives the security officer the right to protect the people and property on the complex. It is private property.
#2: First of all, no such trespass exists where the officer is investigating suspicious activity. See answer to #1. Secondly, the right to start shooting comes when you (as the officer) feels your life is in danger.
#3: If there is nothing suspicious, and the door was closed, then they had no right to enter. However, if the door was open (and I'm betting it was), and the apartment appears to have been ransacked (since it was in such disarray), then they have every right to investigate. Remember, this was an apartment, not a house. But even if it had been a house, and police officers had been called there due to suspicious circumstances, they too would have entered to investigate.

And since we can assume that one of the officers has quite a bit of experience (they don't hire people off the street to start out as detectives), there was enough probable cause for them to enter the residence to check.

 

[JRSherman]

Define what one person vs another thinks disarray is, for starters. I can guarantee you that if a stranger came into my house sometimes, it would seem it is in disarray. The story does not say whether or not the "apartment security detail" were frequent visitors of the man, but we'll probably not know.

At the same time, for the dude to go whackjob on them with a cane, there could be several spinoff theories-on something or just protecting his place of residence.

As far as what private security detail is allowed to carry per the landlord/complex agreement, I'd be curious to know. If they're off duty and deadly force is not authorized, then this seems like a mall-cop gone overboard and non/less than lethal force should have been all that was used, with a prior call to the police(seriously here-off duty doesn't call for backup?).

Seems to me like there is a LOT more to this story that needs to be added.

 

[redneck1861]

My old roomate which is also my best friend, was a courtesy officer at the apartment complex we lived in, the apartment is in Norman, and he is a Clevland County Deputy, he only did the courtesy officer so that we would get free rent, part of his job was to patrol the complex 3 times during the night. He would never be in uniform, but would have his pistol and badge and handcuffs. All three are required to be carried when an off-duty officer carried their weapon. And if he is doing a patrol at the apartment and sees something similar to the story, it is his duty to check on the welfare of the person that lives there.

From what I read about this story, it sounds that the LEO's were in uniform, so that they are easily identified as a LEO. So why would the guy attack them and take away a baton from one of them?

And in a side note, why in the hell were they carrying an old school wooden billy club?

 

[JRSherman]

And in a side note, why in the hell were they carrying an old school wooden billy club?

Arkansas man. . .who knows what goes on there.

 

[Dave70968]

#1: The employing agency gives the security officer the right to protect the people and property on the complex. It is private property.

The employing agency cannot give authority it does not possess. Every lease I've ever signed provides the landlord a right to entry with 24 hours' notice, or for emergency maintenance. Which do you contend exists here?

#2: First of all, no such trespass exists where the officer is investigating suspicious activity. See answer to #1. Secondly, the right to start shooting comes when you (as the officer) feels your life is in danger.

There's no right to shoot in self-defense when you threaten the other party; consider that in the context of my third question.

#3: If there is nothing suspicious, and the door was closed, then they had no right to enter. However, if the door was open (and I'm betting it was), and the apartment appears to have been ransacked (since it was in such disarray), then they have every right to investigate. Remember, this was an apartment, not a house. But even if it had been a house, and police officers had been called there due to suspicious circumstances, they too would have entered to investigate.

And since we can assume that one of the officers has quite a bit of experience (they don't hire people off the street to start out as detectives), there was enough probable cause for them to enter the residence to check.

Apartment, house, same-same to the resident. The hallways may be common areas, but the individual dwellings are just that: individual homes. Analogize to a gated community, with the (private) streets as hallways, and the gates as the front door.

Bottom line: in Oklahoma at least, the (off-duty, acting-as-private-citizen) officers had no right to enter a private home. They did so anyway. At the time, they were not officers, they were private citizens (from the story: "two off-duty officers . . . on private security detail [emphasis added]"). That's trespass. The resident, absent other information not presented, acted according to his rights under 21 OK 1289.25 (again, for sake of argument, treating as Oklahoma, not Arkansas).

If a couple of private citizens entered my home, you can be damned sure I'd fight their efforts to restrain me and work my way to something of thirty caliber or greater. My housekeeping does not mean you're entitled to enter, nor does the open door. If you think differently, come by in the spring and the dog and I will be happy to "discuss" the matter with you.

Oh, and please remind me of what "probable cause" means to the private citizen, which these off-duty officers were at the time.

 

[redneck1861]

The story said that the door was open and they say the apartment in disarray. In Oklahoma there is what is called the "Plain sight clause" which applies to LEO's. It means that if a LEO can see something that is suspicious that is in plain sight, they have a right to enter and investigate. Which from the limited info that we have access to right now, that seems to be what happened. It is the same thing if you are growing pot in your house and you have your curtains open and a LEO walks by and sees it, they wont have to get a warrant to come in and take action, because it was in plain sight.

Just ask any LEO on here if what I say is correct. GC come on here and tell if my post is accurate.