Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays?

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vvvvvvv

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Just because a pagan holiday was previously celebrated on or around the time of Christmas, does not mean that is how Christmas "started out".

Why not celebrate Christmas in September or October, the months in which Christ was most likely born? Because at the time that the official date of Christmas was being decided by the Church, the Romans were concluding Saturnalia on/around December 25, at which time each community killed an innocent person that they had selected to indulge in food and physical pleasures. The thought was that they were getting rid of dark forces.

At first, the Church tried to create a companion festival to Saturnalia in hopes of converting people during the festival.

Because of the pagan origins of the Christmas celebrations, it was illegal to celebrate Christmas when Puritans controlled the Massachusetts colony in the late 1600's.

By the way, lunar cycles and the Spring Equinox are how the date of Easter is traditionally determined - another example of setting holidays solely to coincide with traditional pagan holidays rather than around the days that the events celebrated most likely occurred.

Maybe, we should consider common Christmas decorations.

The Christmas tree comes from a ritual performed by a pagan cult at the time of the establishment of the Church's Christmas holiday. This cult specifically called these trees Asherah trees, which are also specifically prohibited in Old Testament law.

Christmas gifts trace their origin to Saturnalia, where an individual received gifts as described above.

Wreaths also come from Saturnalia and were decorated with images of Saturn for worship.

The Advent tradition of lighting candles on the wreath to symbolize the First, Second, etc Sunday of Advent traces its origins to wreaths being used by European tribes to celebrate the never ending cycle of seasons on Earth. The four candles on the wreath were lit to symbolize each of the four seasons, with a fifth in the center being lit to celebrate the persistence of life through Winter.
 

LightningCrash

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By the way, lunar cycles and the Spring Equinox are how the date of Easter is traditionally determined - another example of setting holidays solely to coincide with traditional pagan holidays rather than around the days that the events celebrated most likely occurred.

I thought Easter was determined by the date of Passover. Is that incorrect?

ETA: Ah, wikipedia, you have made things more confusing.
 

mikeyinokc

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It's a ridiculous statement to say that Christmas really isn't about the birth of Christ. Even if 500 other religions had a celebration on that day, Christmas is about the birth of Christ.

Any source we study was written by someone ... You said we need to study for ourselves rather than taking the word of others. My point was that whether you hear it from the pulpit or read it from a historical source text, you're taking the word of others.

The institution that Christ Himself founded was the Catholic Church. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - St. Matthew 16:18. Every other Christian church at one point or another broke off from the Catholic Church, or spun off from others that had already broken with the Catholic Church. It's the only one that can trace a direct lineage all the way back to Christ Himself.

I do apologize for calling you a moron. You never answered my question though. What is your hidden source for the "true" meaning of Christmas?

It's all good man, no problem on the "moron" comment. Religious topics are difficult to discuss in person let alone on a forum.

1. Christmas today (at least in the eyes of the "Church") is about the birth of Christ. But it wasn't always that way. The Catholic church took what had been a Pagan celebration around December 25th, that included trees, gift giving, babies being born, etc, and turned it into what became a celebration of the birth of Christ. There is no evidence that Christ was born on Christmas day, let alone in December. Christmas today is about the birth of Christ only because the Catholic church said it is.

2. No matter our view point, we are all basing our beliefs on the historical writings of someone. And the point of Christ founding the Catholic church does nothing to prove that Christmas has always been about the birth of Christ.

3. In regard to answering your question. I didn't say anything about the "true" meaning of Christmas. Never used the word true. All of us here are commenting on what our beliefs are. No one can say "true", about any of this. It is just what we choose to believe. As to my source, there are plenty of books written about the periods of history that apply to the subject. Just Google "origin of Christmas". There is plenty to read from a variety of sources.

4. I hope you and yours, as well as the others in this discussion have a Very Merry Christmas this season. As well as those that call the season by any other name.
 

donner

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1. Christmas today (at least in the eyes of the "Church") is about the birth of Christ. But it wasn't always that way. The Catholic church took what had been a Pagan celebration around December 25th, that included trees, gift giving, babies being born, etc, and turned it into what became a celebration of the birth of Christ. There is no evidence that Christ was born on Christmas day, let alone in December. Christmas today is about the birth of Christ only because the Catholic church said it is.

2. No matter our view point, we are all basing our beliefs on the historical writings of someone. And the point of Christ founding the Catholic church does nothing to prove that Christmas has always been about the birth of Christ.

Even Jesus celebrated Hanukkah
 

LightningCrash

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cmhbob

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Even Jesus celebrated Hanukkah
Of course He did. He was Jewish, after all. What we Christians celebrate as "The Lord's Supper" was actually the Seder, or the Passover meal. If you ever have a chance to experience one, I highly encourage you to do so. Very eye-opening.

I'll return the seasonal greeting I get. Say "Happy Holidays" to me and I'll say "To you as well," with a smile on my face.

I'm sorry, but my Christian brothers and sisters get way too worked up over the seasonal greeting thing. Our God is not so immature or worldly or whatever as to get perturbed over what His people say. I'm not about to put God in that kind of a box.

Let's keep in mind a couple of things: nowhere does the Bible command us to remember and celebrate His birthday. If it did, we wouldn't be doing it in December anyway. And much more important than His birth is His willing sacrifice thirty-odd years later.

I'll leave you with a couple of good links for the holidays:

‘Happy Holidays’ and other four letter words | The Path Less Taken

The Star of Bethlehem - an incredible astronomy lesson about the Star.
 

JD8

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I'm sorry, but my Christian brothers and sisters get way too worked up over the seasonal greeting thing. Our God is not so immature or worldly or whatever as to get perturbed over what His people say. I'm not about to put God in that kind of a box.

There's some merit to this...... just as in this thread, it seems that christians are the ones that get offended more often than not opposed to lets say.... atheists.
 

jfssms

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It's Merry Christmas, it's always been that way during my life time. Dang it I'm almost as OLD as IG, and he's a confessed old dude.

You guy's and gal's have a Merry Christmas.
 

been

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one of my teachers is muslim so when the class was leaving after the bell she said "happy holidays" so i replied "and merry Christmas to you too" with a smirk on my face. She started laughing because we joke like that often and neither she or I get offended that easily.
 

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