Muzzleloader Blackhorn 209 loads

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

About to start working up loads for the fall (as soon as I get a turkey).

The rifle I'm going to use this year is going to be a:
--Knight's Original DISC rifle, .50 Cal., 24" bbl

The powder will be:
--Blackhorn 209, loose powder

The bullets will be:
--Precision Rifle Co.'s "Dead Center Duplex" - the ones I got are a 195 gr .357 cal bullet, inside of two 'nested' sabots (one is .50=>.44, the second is .44=>.357)**

My question is, where to START testing? Should I start at 80 gr, 90 gr, 100 gr, or 110 gr? I'm thinking starting at one of those four, but which is likely to work best with this powder, this bbl length, and this type of bullet? Leaning toward starting with 110, and if accuracy is unacceptable, go down by 10 gr increments until accuracy is good, down to 80; then if all those fail, go to 120, then 130. I'm not going to exceed 130, just to be on the abundant caution side of things, even though the Knight's rifles are strong. Decent plan?

http://muzzleloadingbullets.com/dead_center_duplex_sabot.html

http://www.prbullet.com/index.htm

Look at this video clip of a whitetail harvested at 144 yards with a 195 dead center duplex and 100 gr of 777:

http://www.prbullet.com/d-clip.htm (Click on "here")

Notice how it's DRT, but with a 'backup plan' of a good trail, since there's a complete passthrough.



My load for my 'lightweight muzzleloader' (.45 cal, 20" youth Rossi break-action) is 70 gr loose Blackhorn 209, with 225 gr .45 cal powerbelt, but I want this one to have more Ma Bell possibilities - which it will - Better BC bullet, going significantly faster (4" more of barrel, more powder, larger compression ratio with .50 cal, and 30 gr lighter bullet).



** After looking closely at the regs, I have determined that this IS legal for deer hunting in Oklahoma. The regs say:

Legal Means of Taking

Muzzleloading rifles, shotguns or pistols: .40 caliber or larger rifle or pistol, or 20-gauge or larger shotgun, firing a single slug or ball that is loaded from the muzzle.

It does NOT say that the BULLET must be ".40 cal or larger"; rather, it says that the RIFLE must be .40 cal or larger, which this is - it's a .50 cal. It also does NOT say "firing a single slug or ball which is .45 cal or larger", and also does not say "firing a NON-SABOTED [or FULL-CALIBER] single slug or ball", but rather just says "firing a single slug or ball" - so if they had meant to not allow sabots, they had ample opportunity to designate same, and did not do so. So, I'm going for it.


P.S. This Knight's rifle has a left-handed only thumbhole stock - I couldn't sell it, so I decided that I'll just *make* myself practice being ambidextrous by having to shoot left during ML season. Want to be practiced on both sides with all guns.

 

[Okie4570]

I see how your reading the regulations and are coming to the understanding of the .40 cal designation. I would still check with a GW before I spent too much time on it. I'm notorious for having a brilliant idea, only to have is dashed halfway through the project because I didnt research it to the fullest. If it turns out to be legal, I'll be going to the field next year with 180gr. .30 cal ballistic tips, sabotted down in the Savage smokeless. Hope all goes well.

 

[dennishoddy]

I guess I'm going to have to educate myself with "nested sabots".

I'm assuming that means one sabot nested into another to obtain a smaller cal bullet in a larger caliber rifle?

What would the advantage be?
Higher velocity of a small cal bullet, vs a larger bullet designed to expand at MZ velocities?

My Savage Smokeless MZ will shoot a 250 grain Barnes at 2350 fps with a factory recomended load. Same as a .416 Rixby elephant gun. Kicks like one too
The 300 grain bullets have been taken to almost 2700 fps by some of the Savage wildcatters.
What bullets/velocities are you looking at?

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Dennis, click around on those links, then I'll fill you in on the details (what little I know). Velocities - not sure yet, but yes, that's the idea. Large bore (high expansion ratio) with light bullets equals much higher velocities. Plus, it's convenient, as .50 cal is THE standard now, as .45, .52, and .54 have all lost most of their popularity in recent years. Plus, the bullet is longer, giving it both a better BC and better penetration due to sectional density. You'll need a 28 or tighter twist in .50 cal to shoot the 195 duplex loads. But the 175s will probably work with looser twists. If I'm not mistaken, this Knight's smokepole is 28 twist.

My *guess* is that I could squeak up over 2K, but we'll see.

The accuracy is the big question mark, but there's testimonials of good to very good accuracy; we'll see on that count too. That's the most important thing by far, obviously. But look at this quote from my first link in my original post:

Here is a 100 yard .75 inch group I shot on 12 June 2004 with the Dead Center Duplex .357 caliber; 195 grain; using 42.5 grains of IMR 4759 and magnum sub bases in my Savage ML-II and different group I shot in May. Just click a graphic to enlarge it.

Hmmm, yeah, I'd say a .416 Rigby is enough for bambi.

I sold my synthetic-stocked Savage 10ML II, before the announcement of discontinuance, in order to get the 10ML that I wanted - the laminated thumbhole stock 10ML. I would never have sold, had I known they were to be discontinued. There's a buy it now on a 10ML for $1,300 on gunbroker right now - and it's not even the stock I want - yowsa. Don't think I can go there, budget-wise, at the present time. So the next best thing is a T/C or Knight's. I sold my T/C 209/50 bbl as well in a money crunch, but still have two of these Knight's lying around. Knight's is back in business now, so it's all good as far as parts and such, near as I can tell. And these are excellent rifles by all accounts.

http://www.knightrifles.com/


okie4570, easier to ask forgiveness than permission; besides, the language is quite clear to me - the caliber refers to that of the rifle, not the bullet. Sabots are very commonly used, and would have been addressed had it been a concern. Besides, I've never even once ran into a game warden, other than at check stations; I cannot imagine that if I did, he'd really want to look at my ML bullets, or even care if he did. It's plenty humane/effective, and so I'm going for it.

If it turns out to be legal, I'll be going to the field next year with 180gr. .30 cal ballistic tips, sabotted down in the Savage smokeless.

That'd be crazy-cool; let us know if you do it, and/or if you talk to any GWs yourself.

 

[Okie4570]

Let you know if I find something out, keep us updated, curious to see how this works for you. The more I read last night about sabot use, the more I'm convinced that .30 cal stabilization may be difficult. Still going to give it a try though.

 

[dennishoddy]

Twist rate to stabilize the bullet would be the main issue I'm thinking if you went to the .30 cal, and my thinking was confirmed by reading one of the links.
It seems you have to decide which gun you want to shoot, and then select a particular bullet to be compatabile with the twist.
I copied this statment from their website:



We offer a variety of weights to reflect the twist of rifling in the barrel. The blackpowder hunter can purchase rifles with twists of 1-66",1-48", 1-38", 1-32", 1-28", 1-26", 1-24" and 1-20". Obviously, a bullet that is ideal for a 1-38" twist will not be stabilized by a 1-48" twist and will not be optimum for a 1-24" twist. That is why we, and we alone, offer bullets in all weights from 175 grains to 535 grains. Due to their unique design, all weights in a given model will expand to the same proportions but only one weight will give absolute accuracy in each specific rifle.

I'll certainly be interested if you do go this way. Never get rid of the Savage, but I know some other folks that are having some accuracy problems with their MZ's, that may benefit by going this way.