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<blockquote data-quote="rcnich" data-source="post: 856938" data-attributes="member: 4193"><p>You make good points, Red.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No I don't know every SOP for every department in the universe, but I know the CLEET use of force continuum and when a guy has punched me from behind, knocked me down, stomped my head and is tugging at my gun, I DO NOT have to exhaust all my less lethal options FIRST. I get your point; in other situations we do have other options. But I'm specifically referring to lethal force situations -- which is exactly the scenario if bad guy makes a gun grab with Mr. 78 year old.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, I guess I am; and I'm getting tired of splitting hairs on this issue. One has to look at the totality of the circumstances.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't say officers have the discretion to NOT respond. You're damn right we're going. But we're also trained to assess the situation before we blindly barge into a domestic, man with gun, etc. We can't do our job if we get ourselves killed as soon as we arrive on scene.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, police don't operate under the same circumstances as citizens. And citizens, if they're prudent, don't try to break up fights, make arrests, etc. But that doesn't change *the nature of the potential violence* for either of them. Surely you're not saying Mr. Average Joe should be held to a lower expectations of responsibility if he chooses to use the same lethal force tools as a police officer?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Surprise, I do support CCW. Honestly. With a some reservations, mainly pertaining to the ridiculous firearm proficiency standards required for the license, as you so aptly point out. Does that make you feel safer knowing that the guy standing behind you in the McDonald's line may be just as likely to shoot you in the back of the head as shoot the robber? Since we both support CCW, I guess you and I have resigned ourselves to live with that probability. But is that the best way to deal with the risks?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Last time I checked, politicians and lawmakers are elected by a MAJORITY of voters. These elected representatives then represent citizens' interests to make the laws we all agree to live by. It's been a long time since my 8th grade civics class, but that's how I remember it. (Of course the system today is totally warped by corporate and special interest lobbyists, but that's a whole other can of worms.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="rcnich, post: 856938, member: 4193"] You make good points, Red. No I don't know every SOP for every department in the universe, but I know the CLEET use of force continuum and when a guy has punched me from behind, knocked me down, stomped my head and is tugging at my gun, I DO NOT have to exhaust all my less lethal options FIRST. I get your point; in other situations we do have other options. But I'm specifically referring to lethal force situations -- which is exactly the scenario if bad guy makes a gun grab with Mr. 78 year old. Yes, I guess I am; and I'm getting tired of splitting hairs on this issue. One has to look at the totality of the circumstances. I didn't say officers have the discretion to NOT respond. You're damn right we're going. But we're also trained to assess the situation before we blindly barge into a domestic, man with gun, etc. We can't do our job if we get ourselves killed as soon as we arrive on scene. No, police don't operate under the same circumstances as citizens. And citizens, if they're prudent, don't try to break up fights, make arrests, etc. But that doesn't change *the nature of the potential violence* for either of them. Surely you're not saying Mr. Average Joe should be held to a lower expectations of responsibility if he chooses to use the same lethal force tools as a police officer? Surprise, I do support CCW. Honestly. With a some reservations, mainly pertaining to the ridiculous firearm proficiency standards required for the license, as you so aptly point out. Does that make you feel safer knowing that the guy standing behind you in the McDonald's line may be just as likely to shoot you in the back of the head as shoot the robber? Since we both support CCW, I guess you and I have resigned ourselves to live with that probability. But is that the best way to deal with the risks? Last time I checked, politicians and lawmakers are elected by a MAJORITY of voters. These elected representatives then represent citizens' interests to make the laws we all agree to live by. It's been a long time since my 8th grade civics class, but that's how I remember it. (Of course the system today is totally warped by corporate and special interest lobbyists, but that's a whole other can of worms.) [/QUOTE]
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