Annealing Straight Wall?

[Wheelgun]

I’m kinda confused, is it Marlin in 45 colt or 45-70? Your commented about the Trapdoor and Ruger #1 loadings, is what confused me. Those are the start and stop points for 45/70 in my books, not 45colt.

When I had a 45/70, annealing the 45/70 seems to help case life, loading ease, and bullet retention. While it’s probably beneficial, in my opinion it’s an unnecessary step in 45colt. (Though Starline brass would probably benefit from it, that stuff is thick and stiff)

 

[cdschoonie]

I’m kinda confused, is it Marlin in 45 colt or 45-70? Your commented about the Trapdoor and Ruger #1 loadings, is what confused me. Those are the start and stop points for 45/70 in my books, not 45colt.

When I had a 45/70, annealing the 45/70 seems to help case life, loading ease, and bullet retention. While it’s probably beneficial, in my opinion it’s an unnecessary step in 45colt. (Though Starline brass would probably benefit from it, that stuff is thick and stiff)

My mistake lol I confused myself. I load both 45 Colt and 45-70. When I wrote the last comment I was looking at 45-70 brass.

 

[Ahall]

I have shot 45/70 for years.
Never annealed it.
I have loaded each case more than 30 times.
Lead bullets from a single shot, and moderate loads so no need to crimp.
Very slight case flare to ease seating of the bullet.

When I shoot the 45/70 from a gun with a tube magazine, the recoil from a stout load can shift the position of the lead if the crimp is too light.
So a bit of crimp is warranted in that application.

I have also seen bullets walk out under the recoil of a light revolver, and jam the cylinder.

Annealing reduces the tensile strength of the case, allowing it to yield more easily and not spring back as much.
Each shot work hardens the case, increasing the strength and reducing the ductility and increasing spring back.
Annealing restores the ductility.

Full length vs neck sizing.
If its a bolt action or single shot and you only have one, neck sizing is fine.
With an auto loader, you may have feed problems if you only neck size.
If you use the ammo in multiple guns of the same caliber, you may need to full length size.

Neck sizing allows the shell to match the length of the chamber and minimize length change when it fires.
It also minimizes the variation in the shells position relative to the chamber walls.
With a single shot, you get really picky and load each shell with the head stamp oriented the same way in an attempt to account for the runout between the chamber and bore (My eyes are not good enough to tell the difference).

The tight length clearance is fine for range work, but not what you want in a hunting or tactical round.
Too tight and a speck of dirt or grime on the shell jambs up the works.


The downside to full length sizing bottle neck shells is thinning of the case wall.
The classic shell for problems is the old 303. The chambers were designed to have a lot of clearance and headspace, but it can happen in any cartridge.

The firing pin pushes the shell to the forward extreme of the headspace, then crushes the cap and detonates the shell.
The thinner parts of the brass expand, sealing the chamber with enough friction to stick tightly to the chamber wall.
The thick case head does not stick and moves back against the face of the breach.
The case grows to fill the chamber, stretching in the body of the case.
When the pressure drops, the elasticity of the brass is just enough to release the case from the wall of the chamber and allow for ejection.

If you full length size, the case will shorten up and grow again on the next firing.
The stretching tents to occur in the same area and after repeated reloading's the case is too thin and hard and you get case head separation.
Pulling back the bolt and getting the last 1/4 inch of the shell is not a good day a the range. Its not that bad to get one out, but not a desirable thing either.

This is not a big deal if you gun was designed to handle a ruptured case head, but can be a disaster in some older bolt action designs that did not consider this (pre 1898 pattern Mausers for example)

 

[rmark]

I shoot trapdoor level 45-70 loads, annealing after about a dozen reloads. I full length resize as my vintage trapdoor and reproduction sharps chambers don’t quite match.

 

[cdschoonie]

I have shot 45/70 for years.
Never annealed it.
I have loaded each case more than 30 times.
Lead bullets from a single shot, and moderate loads so no need to crimp.
Very slight case flare to ease seating of the bullet.

When I shoot the 45/70 from a gun with a tube magazine, the recoil from a stout load can shift the position of the lead if the crimp is too light.
So a bit of crimp is warranted in that application.

I have also seen bullets walk out under the recoil of a light revolver, and jam the cylinder.

Annealing reduces the tensile strength of the case, allowing it to yield more easily and not spring back as much.
Each shot work hardens the case, increasing the strength and reducing the ductility and increasing spring back.
Annealing restores the ductility.

Full length vs neck sizing.
If its a bolt action or single shot and you only have one, neck sizing is fine.
With an auto loader, you may have feed problems if you only neck size.
If you use the ammo in multiple guns of the same caliber, you may need to full length size.

Neck sizing allows the shell to match the length of the chamber and minimize length change when it fires.
It also minimizes the variation in the shells position relative to the chamber walls.
With a single shot, you get really picky and load each shell with the head stamp oriented the same way in an attempt to account for the runout between the chamber and bore (My eyes are not good enough to tell the difference).

The tight length clearance is fine for range work, but not what you want in a hunting or tactical round.
Too tight and a speck of dirt or grime on the shell jambs up the works.


The downside to full length sizing bottle neck shells is thinning of the case wall.
The classic shell for problems is the old 303. The chambers were designed to have a lot of clearance and headspace, but it can happen in any cartridge.

The firing pin pushes the shell to the forward extreme of the headspace, then crushes the cap and detonates the shell.
The thinner parts of the brass expand, sealing the chamber with enough friction to stick tightly to the chamber wall.
The thick case head does not stick and moves back against the face of the breach.
The case grows to fill the chamber, stretching in the body of the case.
When the pressure drops, the elasticity of the brass is just enough to release the case from the wall of the chamber and allow for ejection.

If you full length size, the case will shorten up and grow again on the next firing.
The stretching tents to occur in the same area and after repeated reloading's the case is too thin and hard and you get case head separation.
Pulling back the bolt and getting the last 1/4 inch of the shell is not a good day a the range. Its not that bad to get one out, but not a desirable thing either.

This is not a big deal if you gun was designed to handle a ruptured case head, but can be a disaster in some older bolt action designs that did not consider this (pre 1898 pattern Mausers for example)

First I will apologize, most of this is Greek, but since I desperately want to learn, and practice what will best work for my rifle. With that in mind, I am now going to start a new thread, so in the future, with new folks to the forum in mind, I want to leave this mostly about the title…Annealing straight wall cartridges. If you don’t mind, I’d love to hear more, in reference to my 6.5 CM.

 

[Vince 1340]

Minimally working the brass will add much life to it.
If you are sending max loads down range the brass will not last as long as if you sent mild loads down the pipe.

I anneal every time with my rifle cases.
Not because I am afraid of a case neck split but because of accuracy.
When I did a couple brass fail tests for my .308 I shot the cases until they failed and all of them died of case head cracks not split necks.

My loads were mid range loads.
No annealing was done on my first test of .308 cases and R-P case lasted 54 firings and Full length sized each time.

Now I will say This I did not set the shoulders back more than .002" and the body of the case was not sized any more than .002"
anywhere except the neck.
If your die pinches(sizes) the case down .008" vs the fired size you can expect much less life.

I had a 45 Colt and something I hated about it was the brass.
Every manufacturer has their idea of how thick or how long it should be.
If you have different makes of brass for that do some measuring and I bet you find the same.

Sure makes it tough to come up with an accurate load when case sizes are all over the map.

If the gun was a better made one with all the cylinders the same size and shot accurate I would have gladly spent money on new brass so i could have a bunch of the same size.
It was a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley.
It made me sad to shoot it every time I took it out because it was nice but not accurate.
I did some tweaking and made it more accurate but still not up to par.

If you are chasing your tail on trying to make accurate ammo please measure the cases and sort them.
It will save you a lot of time and a lot of components.

Why not trim them to minimum size?

 

[Vince 1340]

Just went and tested one of the suspect Remington 357 Mag cases.
I sized it as normal and flared it and then placed a Hornady XTP .355" bullet by hand into the case mouth and it fell right in .
Then took a .357" XTP and it also fell into the case but just barely.
With said .357 bullet in the case I turned the case upside down and the bullet fell out.

I then annealed it and let it cool and wiped out the inside of the case and that .357" bullet still fell in and out.
Yes that was a case that was sized and then annealed.

I ran it through the sizer die again and then the flare die and the .355" bullet fell in and out like before.
The .357" bullet needed some pressure by hand to get it into the case.

I had to get pliers to pull it out of the case.

I held that 357 case by hand in the flame of a propane torch to anneal .400" of the end of the case.
Got hot and I let it drop in my aluminum pan.

If you are having inconsistent seating pressures with your straight wall cases and they all measure the same wall thickness I would say annealing may work in a favorable way.

If you have cases like my R-P 357 magnum cases that do not get small enough in the ID you may try annealing.

When I began annealing I tested a lot of cases but all rifle and I always had more even seating pressures and seating pressures came up.
Lapua cases not so much but winchester cases would take 18 psi to seat a bullet unannealed and 45 PSI when they were annealed and
it eliminated the odd fliers to some extent.

There will sometimes be that rouge case that does not have the same seating pressures and it will open the group.

Hope this little test helps you decide @cdschoonie

You need to anneal before sizing.