I work for a local retail store, I'm curious to know if you have to have a concealed carry permit to protect yourself while behind a retail counter? Does anyone know how that would work if someone attempted a robbery, and I shot someone? Does the law recognize my right to protect my place of business?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you would have to have specific authorization from the owner to carry without a permit.
TITLE 21 § 1272. A
[Everything is prohibited, concealed or unconcealed], except this section shall not prohibit:
2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;
Now when we're down in 1271.1 they make an interesting point:
TITLE 21 § 1272.1. Carrying firearms where liquor is consumed
CARRYING FIREARMS WHERE LIQUOR IS CONSUMED
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry or possess any weapon designated in Section 1272 of this title in any establishment where low-point beer, as defined by Section 163.2 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, or alcoholic beverages, as defined by Section 506 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, are consumed. This provision shall not apply to a peace officer, as defined in Section 99 of this title, or to private investigators with a firearms authorization when acting in the scope and course of employment, and shall not apply to an owner or proprietor of the establishment having a pistol, rifle, or shotgun on the premises. Provided however, a person possessing a valid concealed handgun license pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title may carry the concealed handgun into any restaurant or other establishment licensed to dispense low-point beer or alcoholic beverages where the sale of low-point beer or alcoholic beverages does not constitute the primary purpose of the business.
Looking back at case history, the conditions of Pierce v State have never been reversed
http://www.kyfirearms.org/2001/legislate/okla.html
"held, that a defendant may be properly convicted of carrying on or about his person a revolver, and that the fact that the revolver is carried upon his person within the curtilage of his own premises is immaterial."
"It is immaterial what locality a person is in when carrying a weapon, except where the statute expressly allows one to carry a weapon on his own premises or about his place of business"
So even the H&H employees open carrying are in violation of the law.
Hope this helps.
Just don't strap on the pistol, IMO. Loaded, sitting under the counter is not a "concealed handgun":
Concealed handgun means a loaded or unloaded pistol carried hidden from the detection and view of
another person either upon or about the person, in a purse or other container belonging to the person, or in a
vehicle which is operated by the person or in which the person is riding as a passenger; and
[Everything is prohibited, concealed or unconcealed], except this section shall not prohibit:
2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;
Now when we're down in 1271.1 they make an interesting point:
TITLE 21 § 1272.1. Carrying firearms where liquor is consumed
CARRYING FIREARMS WHERE LIQUOR IS CONSUMED
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry or possess any weapon designated in Section 1272 of this title in any establishment where low-point beer, as defined by Section 163.2 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, or alcoholic beverages, as defined by Section 506 of Title 37 of the Oklahoma Statutes, are consumed. This provision shall not apply to a peace officer, as defined in Section 99 of this title, or to private investigators with a firearms authorization when acting in the scope and course of employment, and shall not apply to an owner or proprietor of the establishment having a pistol, rifle, or shotgun on the premises. Provided however, a person possessing a valid concealed handgun license pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title may carry the concealed handgun into any restaurant or other establishment licensed to dispense low-point beer or alcoholic beverages where the sale of low-point beer or alcoholic beverages does not constitute the primary purpose of the business.
Looking back at case history, the conditions of Pierce v State have never been reversed
http://www.kyfirearms.org/2001/legislate/okla.html
"held, that a defendant may be properly convicted of carrying on or about his person a revolver, and that the fact that the revolver is carried upon his person within the curtilage of his own premises is immaterial."
"It is immaterial what locality a person is in when carrying a weapon, except where the statute expressly allows one to carry a weapon on his own premises or about his place of business"
So even the H&H employees open carrying are in violation of the law.
Hope this helps.
Just don't strap on the pistol, IMO. Loaded, sitting under the counter is not a "concealed handgun":
Concealed handgun means a loaded or unloaded pistol carried hidden from the detection and view of
another person either upon or about the person, in a purse or other container belonging to the person, or in a
vehicle which is operated by the person or in which the person is riding as a passenger; and
(Ignore this because it is highly ignorant on my part,but,I would do it).
I wouldnt give a shite if something bad happened in my life and I really needed the money bad enough to have to work at like a convenience store or gas station or pharmacy late at night or whatever in a large city and I didnt have a permit to carry or the boss wouldnt let me. I would have something under the counter without a permit or permission if I had to. I might get in trouble if something went down but I would at least be alive. Just sayin...
I wouldnt give a shite if something bad happened in my life and I really needed the money bad enough to have to work at like a convenience store or gas station or pharmacy late at night or whatever in a large city and I didnt have a permit to carry or the boss wouldnt let me. I would have something under the counter without a permit or permission if I had to. I might get in trouble if something went down but I would at least be alive. Just sayin...
"It is immaterial what locality a person is in when carrying a weapon, except where the statute expressly allows one to carry a weapon on his own premises or about his place of business
It is unlawful for any person, except for peace officers on duty, to carry a firearm upon or about his person, or in any container, except for purposes of hunting, fishing, education or recreation or by a valid Concealed Carry License (CCL).
A person is permitted to carry firearms open and not concealed when hunting, during safety class, target shooting, for a military function, for a police function, or for entertainment events or historical reenactments.
It is unlawful for any person, except for peace officers on duty, to carry a firearm upon or about his person, or in any container, except for purposes of hunting, fishing, education or recreation or by a valid Concealed Carry License (CCL).
A person is permitted to carry firearms open and not concealed when hunting, during safety class, target shooting, for a military function, for a police function, or for entertainment events or historical reenactments.
First, IANAL, but I do teach this stuff. Some important points:
1. The CHL does not give (or detract from) the rights of self defense under the law. The CHL is an exception to the general prohibition against carrying a handgun, and is irrelevant to the justification required to use same.
2. The OK law recognizes the right to protect people, not just to shoot in defense of property. That's why you can't rig a bobby trap to kill a burglar, legally. In an armed robbery, you should be acting to protect yourself and others, not the cash and merchandise.
3. Even if you are licensed, the employer can still prohibit his employee having a gun in his store.
4. Laws on use of deadly force need to be firmly fixed in mind before putting yourself in a position to employ it. A CHL class is a way to learn at least part of it, so why not take the class and get the license?
OP has not responded to any of this, yet.
I have a question for him.
Why don't you get a CCW permit if you want to carry? Its cheap, and easy. You might even learn something.
Beside, having the CCW will make it possible for you to transport your firearm in a manner that makes it both legal and useful for self defense. Unless you live in your retail location, the daily trip to get there with a handgun without a permit will be a daily pain in the butt. Go read SDA for the details.
If you don't qualify for the permit for some reason, I doubt you can be lawfully in possession of a handgun anyway.
jej
I have a question for him.
Why don't you get a CCW permit if you want to carry? Its cheap, and easy. You might even learn something.
Beside, having the CCW will make it possible for you to transport your firearm in a manner that makes it both legal and useful for self defense. Unless you live in your retail location, the daily trip to get there with a handgun without a permit will be a daily pain in the butt. Go read SDA for the details.
If you don't qualify for the permit for some reason, I doubt you can be lawfully in possession of a handgun anyway.
jej
Thanks for all the replies. My coworker and I were just having a discussion today about what would happen if we were to be robbed. I'm planning on getting my license, just trying to get out from under student loans etc first. Also, jej, I transport my weapon in the manner which I understand it to be legal, that is, unloaded and in it's case. I'm not mistaken in that, am I?
I hear you on that. After the Luby's thing in Texas my mom bought a pistol. There was also an incident where somebody robbed a dry cleaning store or something, and made everybody lay down on the floor, and he shot every one of them in the back of the head.
So when we went on family trips, that pistol was always in her purse. Luby's happened in 1991 and they didn't pass the CCW bill in Texas until 1995 IIRC.
I asked her one time what would happen if she had to use it on someone and got arrested. She said that was the better of the two possible outcomes.
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