Most Versatile 12 gauge round?

[dennishoddy]

I'd like to see the same test conducted with a layer of denim, then soft fatty tissue, then dense muscular tissue, followed by bone, then more soft tissue...more like a human body. What you will more than likely find is the the outer soft layer followed by the muscular tissue will absorb/displace most of the impact and you will have little to no penetration of the bone and subsequent trauma to the underlying soft tissue...as in the critical organs that must be damaged to stop an attacker.

Good stuff though...thanks for putting it up.

I agree. KFOR in OKC had a report of a guy being shot twice in the gut with a .22 in a drive by. He was standing, and laughing while the EMT's were preparing to take him to the ER.



Said he had been shot with a 9mm in the gut a few years ago, and had no ill effects. He was close to 500 pounds. I had posted a link to the story as well, so if anybody wants to do a little goggle fu, go ahead. I'm not going to take the time.


Back on topic. If I wanted to use a shotgun for HD I would go with the latest tecnology in turkey loads. DRT kills out to 60 yds are common with tungston shot that is heavier than lead. Federal just came out with a load that uses the flight contol wads that have big loads and big shot for turkey and coyote. That would be the minimum shotgun load I would even consider for HD.

I did a test with pics on this forum using a Tarus Judge, and a full length shotgun on various targets to see what might be the best round.

Not one round at 7 yds penetrated a cheap pair of safety glasses that my company puts out for us to use.
Its posted on OSA, y'all can look it up. Taurus Judge, and a full length H&R shotgun.

 

[pen25]

I agree. KFOR in OKC had a report of a guy being shot twice in the gut with a .22 in a drive by. He was standing, and laughing while the EMT's were preparing to take him to the ER.



Said he had been shot with a 9mm in the gut a few years ago, and had no ill effects. He was close to 500 pounds. I had posted a link to the story as well, so if anybody wants to do a little goggle fu, go ahead. I'm not going to take the time.


Back on topic. If I wanted to use a shotgun for HD I would go with the latest tecnology in turkey loads. DRT kills out to 60 yds are common with tungston shot that is heavier than lead. Federal just came out with a load that uses the flight contol wads that have big loads and big shot for turkey and coyote. That would be the minimum shotgun load I would even consider for HD.

I did a test with pics on this forum using a Tarus Judge, and a full length shotgun on various targets to see what might be the best round.

Not one round at 7 yds penetrated a cheap pair of safety glasses that my company puts out for us to use.
Its posted on OSA, y'all can look it up. Taurus Judge, and a full length H&R shotgun.

the plastic is designed to absorb the impact and is not a good test just as ballistics's gel isnt a good test. yes slug or 000 is better but in most home defense situations the shot is going to be well short of 20 yards. more down towards 10 to 15 yards. the wad itself will just be separating from the shot. in my home i do not feel underguned with my shotgun loaded with birdshot. but like most things its to each their own. have heard people say a 22lr wont penetrate a heavy leather jacket. have heard birdshot will not hurt anyone. a 22lr will kill at ranges longer then 100 yards and birdshot will kill someone in a home at 10 yards.

 

[ignerntbend]

If you had a crossman pellet gun in .177 all you'd have to do is pump it up 15 times and it would kill most anybody under the right circumstances. Even if it didn't kill them, it could damn sure put their eye out.

 

[Shadowrider]

I agree. KFOR in OKC had a report of a guy being shot twice in the gut with a .22 in a drive by. He was standing, and laughing while the EMT's were preparing to take him to the ER.



Said he had been shot with a 9mm in the gut a few years ago, and had no ill effects. He was close to 500 pounds. I had posted a link to the story as well, so if anybody wants to do a little goggle fu, go ahead. I'm not going to take the time.


Back on topic. If I wanted to use a shotgun for HD I would go with the latest tecnology in turkey loads. DRT kills out to 60 yds are common with tungston shot that is heavier than lead. Federal just came out with a load that uses the flight contol wads that have big loads and big shot for turkey and coyote. That would be the minimum shotgun load I would even consider for HD.

I did a test with pics on this forum using a Tarus Judge, and a full length shotgun on various targets to see what might be the best round.

Not one round at 7 yds penetrated a cheap pair of safety glasses that my company puts out for us to use.
Its posted on OSA, y'all can look it up. Taurus Judge, and a full length H&R shotgun.

I'd like to see what a 1oz old style foster slug at full power velocity would do at inside the home ranges. Say 3 to 20 feet. I've read that they are not likely to over penetrate because they basically turn themselves inside out with expansion. The key here is impact at enough velocity so it would appear that the low recoil stuff wouldn't be the route to go. But I sure wouldn't use them with testing because I dont' know if I buy the theory or not. I have seen some test on gelatin but like you say, gelatin ain't exactly real world. My idea of a test would be on a skinned hog. Maybe throw a layer of denim over it. The hogs skin would be too tough to be realistic but without it and proper shot placement you might get a realistic simulation.

I'm relatively certain that OO buck loads in the house are just gonna hit and keep on trucking. The low recoil versions at 1125FPS might be alright but I'd rather have #4 buck I think. It's going all moot for me anyway because I'm going to .300 Blackout for this. 220 grain subsonics.

 

[tRidiot]

I love seeing people talk about being worried about overpenetration through drywall in a home. The only round that is going to do enough damage to kill or even forcibly STOP an attacker or invader is BY NECESSITY going to have to be able to penetrate through multiple layers of drywall. I mean seriously, folks... I can punch a hole through both sides of a standard wall with my fist. Can I punch a hole in somebody's chest and smash their heart??? Nope.

Of course, overpenetration beyond that necessary to inflict mortal wounds is an issue... using an AK with 7.62x39 inside a home is likely inviting trouble, even IF you keep all your rounds right on target. Even a .223 AR will in all likelihood cause more than a few rounds to completely exit the target and enter the wall behind, with the ability of a few of them to still pass through drywall and injure someone on the other side. If it can't penetrate a wall, folks, it ain't gonna kill someone, except as a fluke or a seriously lucky shot through the carotid, windpipe or eye, lol.

It's ALL about shot placement and awareness of surroundings in home defense, just as in every other situation where you might be firing a firearm - hunting, target or defense.

If an intruder is in my home, am I going to fire at him with a direct line behind him into my son's bedroom with him still inside? Unlikely, or if I do, I'm aiming high, 'cause I don't expect my 7 y/o to be jumping on his bed in the dark at 3 o'clock in the morning.

The key is TRAINING and PRACTICE with your weapon. I'm not talking about learning to clear rooms in an FBI HRT manner like you see on TV. I'm talking about being familiar enough with your weapon to use it as second nature, so you have time to think about other things, have confidence in your ability to handle the threat and be calm enough during the situation to maintain situational awareness.

Hell, I'd be confident enough to blast a bad guy in the hallway with my shotgun full of 00 OR target loads... knowing my boy was standing behind him!!!

How can I say that????

Well, because odds are, I'm gonna be somewhat crouched, and knowing the intruder has my loved one behind him, I'm gonna be aiming upwards. Even hitting him at chest height, not only is little to none of the buckshot gonna penetrate fully through him, it's going to be traveling upwards as well, and even if it were to exit completely, the odds of it having enough residual kinetic energy AND necessary trajectory to hit my son, I don't expect serious injury.

Is it ideal? Hell no! But if it were an absolute life-and-death situation for me or my child, I would take the chance, and take it with relative confidence in the outcome. What is the alternative?

Exactly...

My point is, the whole argument about overpenetration is vastly overblown. Underpenetration is what I'd be a helluva lot more worried about.

 

[Cinaet]

Well done video. I like his approach, it was informative.

However I think the biggest flaw in his test is the placement and layers of the test medium. He used denim, ribs, then soft tissue. Just like he said about humans not being made of ballistic gel, or pizza boxes, humans aren't walking around with exoskeleton's either. LOL

I'd like to see the same test conducted with a layer of denim, then soft fatty tissue, then dense muscular tissue, followed by bone, then more soft tissue...more like a human body. What you will more than likely find is the the outer soft layer followed by the muscular tissue will absorb/displace most of the impact and you will have little to no penetration of the bone and subsequent trauma to the underlying soft tissue...as in the critical organs that must be damaged to stop an attacker.

Good stuff though...thanks for putting it up.

Good points all around. Thanks SMS!