+P ammo in middle-aged S&W

[poopgiggle]

I have a no-dash S&W Model 38, which as you may know is an aluminum-framed revolver in 38 Special, made in 1969-70.

I've been looking at defense ammo, and ballistic testing shows that standard-pressure 38 Special will penetrate out of a snubnose, or it will expand out of a snubnose, but it won't do both. If I want expansion and penetration, it looks like I'll need to move up to +P ammo.

Am I OK shooting a few +P rounds through my revolver? I'm talking about a couple cylinders to figure out what shooting them feels like, then a cylinder and two speed strips full of rounds I'll hopefully never shoot.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I will wait for others to chime in here,and will defer to experienced opinions... but I'd be wary on one hand... and would not hesitate to fire a limited diet of +P on the other hand.

Why the wishy washy?

From what I have heard from several sources... what passes for +P sold today is about as stout as the commercial .38 special sold in the 1930's.

I have heard from several sources over the years that 70's vintage SW guns are safe to fire with +P loads. Most of those opinions are based on steel framed guns.

About the only way you would know if your gun is +P capable is to measure from forcing cone to the rear frame face.. and see if it stretches after your run the hot stuff in it.
Now... directly speaking (if it was my gun and it is not)... putting 10 +P through that revolver probably wont hurt a thing. I have a alloy Colt... I've fired a very limited amount of +P through that gun just to see were it impacts.


It's your gun and my opinion is worth what you paid for it...

About expansion and penetration from the short barrel... do a little research about what was know as the "Treasury Load"... If memory serves, testing found a JSP 110 grain bullet usually gives the best balance of performance against human targets.

158 grain Round Nosed Lead (standard load for 38 special) isnt sexy... but it has a long track record and I never felt undergunned with it when that was all we had a few years back. I seem to have seen some photos of RNL lead projectial that had expanded to nearly .75" when fired into gelatin blocks with good penetration. 148 gr lead semi-wadcutters had some favorable data when tested also.

 

[poopgiggle]

From what I have heard from several sources... what passes for +P sold today is about as stout as the commercial .38 special sold in the 1930's.

That is interesting and I'd like to see the source.

They may be talking about .38-44, which was 38 Special loaded hot and designed to fire from big-framed 38s that could handle it. 357 Magnum ended up doing the same thing, but did it better (one reason was that you couldn't fit .357 magnum cartridges into a .38 like you could with .38-44).

About the only way you would know if your gun is +P capable is to measure from forcing cone to the rear frame face.. and see if it stretches after your run the hot stuff in it.
Now... directly speaking (if it was my gun and it is not)... putting 10 +P through that revolver probably wont hurt a thing. I have a alloy Colt... I've fired a very limited amount of +P through that gun just to see were it impacts.


It's your gun and my opinion is worth what you paid for it...

The guys at OPS told me "you're fine as long as you don't go plinkin' with it," but I wanted to get some more opinions. Also I wasn't sure if they meant "a few rounds won't hurt anything," or "your gun won't blow up if you shoot in a SD situation, but it will do bad things to the gun."

About expansion and penetration from the short barrel... do a little research about what was know as the "Treasury Load"... If memory serves, testing found a JSP 110 grain bullet usually gives the best balance of performance against human targets.

The Treasury Load was a 110gr +P+ load. I'm already apprehensive about +P

158 grain Round Nosed Lead (standard load for 38 special) isnt sexy... but it has a long track record and I never felt undergunned with it when that was all we had a few years back. I seem to have seen some photos of RNL lead projectial that had expanded to nearly .75" when fired into gelatin blocks with good penetration. 148 gr lead semi-wadcutters had some favorable data when tested also.

If I go the standard-pressure-heavy-bullet route, I'll probably pick these up.

 

[LBnM]

I really like these in my wife's old Smith. They are extremely accurate in that gun and they have a good reputation as a standard pressure load. Hard to find but I stocked up on 50 round boxes some time back when Ammo to Go had them. I also found a few at Fred Bakers last year.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=724210

 

[Jefpainthorse]

That is interesting and I'd like to see the source.

They may be talking about .38-44, which was 38 Special loaded hot and designed to fire from big-framed 38s that could handle it. 357 Magnum ended up doing the same thing, but did it better (one reason was that you couldn't fit .357 magnum cartridges into a .38 like you could with .38-44).



The guys at OPS told me "you're fine as long as you don't go plinkin' with it," but I wanted to get some more opinions. Also I wasn't sure if they meant "a few rounds won't hurt anything," or "your gun won't blow up if you shoot in a SD situation, but it will do bad things to the gun."



The Treasury Load was a 110gr +P+ load. I'm already apprehensive about +P



If I go the standard-pressure-heavy-bullet route, I'll probably pick these up.

Like I said... I am going from memory here... the Treasury Load may have been a +P+ load at it's final evolution... but the point I was trying to make... bullets in the 110-125 grain weight class seem to offer pretty good performance from snub barrels.

38/44? Elmer Keith and his cohorts were hot loading 38 special cases to way past 357 values and those guys were blowing up guns left and right. Sticking 38 special cylinder on 44 caliber frame was S and W's short term solution until the 357 mag finally came out in the mid 30's. Elmer liked a 173 grain bullet and 38/44's could push 1400 fps (reported by some sources but factory loads ran in the 1100 fps range typically).

I dont know if Evan Marshall ever commited it to writing

- but I remember him saying something about the 38 special of the 30's getting near +P numbers. (I have spoken with Evan face to face -used to shoot a range he owned for a while).

To clarify.... yep... half a box of +P now and then wont blow up your gun.... but like handloads.... you wont know till it happens. Documenting your frames dimensions may ease your mind... if you see a trend of stretching over a few hundred rounds....

Good luck... and if you get spooky about potental pressure problems --- there are a lot of steel J frames out there for sale.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=24

 

[poopgiggle]

I really like these in my wife's old Smith. They are extremely accurate in that gun and they have a good reputation as a standard pressure load. Hard to find but I stocked up on 50 round boxes some time back when Ammo to Go had them. I also found a few at Fred Bakers last year.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=724210

Those are what I carry in it right now Unfortunately, after seeing this data, I don't have much faith in Nyclads as a defense load anymore.

The top row expanded just fine, but the average (corrected) penetration depth was 7.4", which is unacceptable.

The bottom row, shot through denim, clogged with the material and acted like a solid bullet.

I figured they were "good enough" for summer, but now that I'm starting to use my snub as a coat-pocket gun in colder weather I'm looking for a change.

 

[poopgiggle]

Like I said... I am going from memory here... the Treasury Load may have been a +P+ load at it's final evolution... but the point I was trying to make... bullets in the 110-125 grain weight class seem to offer pretty good performance from snub barrels.

Thanks, and duly noted. Speer makes a "Short Barrel Gold Dot" 125 gr load in 38+P that fits that description.

To clarify.... yep... half a box of +P now and then wont blow up your gun.... but like handloads.... you wont know till it happens.

OK. I'm thinking that I'll just practice with near-max standard-pressure 38 special, and then carry the +Ps. I only have $250 into my Bodyguard so I won't be too heartbroken if I have to shoot +Ps at somebody and it gets shot loose.

 

[Jefpainthorse]

I kinda have to ask... why would you want to shoot boomer loads out of a light gun?

Snub nosed guns are a bear to shoot anyway. The extra flip, fire and flash can make a controlled follow up shot very hard to pull off.

I never took all of Evans findings as total gospel... but since 1902 short 38s and "conventional" ammunition offer a pretty sucessful history in armed encounters.

SW offers all these light weight high tech 357's now days. I bet ya cyber lunch 95% of those buyers run 10 rounds of "premium" defensive 357 in em and go back to standard velocity 38 specials for regular carry

 

[poopgiggle]

I kinda have to ask... why would you want to shoot boomer loads out of a light gun?

The only standards I'm aware of for performance of handgun ammo are the FBI and IWBA standards. Out of a snubnose, only the "boomer loads" meet those standards.

Snub nosed guns are a bear to shoot anyway. The extra flip, fire and flash can make a controlled follow up shot very hard to pull off.

Yeah, you're telling me. I broke out my Captains of Crush grippers to build up my hand strength. I'm getting to where I can control standard loads alright in rapid fire.

It's going to come down to a balance between wounding effectiveness and time between shots on target. Would I rather have a greater split between shots, but have those shots make bigger and deeper holes, or have more rapid shots that make smaller and/or more shallow holes? That's the million dollar question, and I don't think I can answer it intelligently without actually shooting some +Ps downrange to see how much harder the gun is to control. I don't believe that it will be as bad as shooting full-house .357 magnum out of a snub, though.

My initial feeling is to say, "carry the ballistically-superior bullets and train to get faster followup shots with them."

I never took all of Evans findings as total gospel... but since 1902 short 38s and "conventional" ammunition offer a pretty sucessful history in armed encounters.

I know you used to chill with Evan Marshall, but I always had issues with his methodology. I'm too much of a scientist to give more weight to a collection of anecdotes than to a controlled laboratory experiment, so I'm in the Fackler camp.

HOWEVER, Fackler said that in a 38 snub the best ammo (in his opinion) was either a wadcutter or semi-wadcutter, so that's another option I've been considering.

SW offers all these light weight high tech 357's now days. I bet ya cyber lunch 95% of those buyers run 10 rounds of "premium" defensive 357 in em and go back to standard velocity 38 specials for regular carry

Yep. Right back to, "we talk 45s, shoot 9mms, and carry 38s."

 

[GUN DOG]

I'd like to find some of those buffalo bores locally, my snubs shoot 158's std pressure to point of aim. I do have the gold dot 135 short barrel right now