The gun owner analogy is a false analogy. Gun owners who have committed atrocities and mayhem neither follow nor have written a book about how to live a life such as they have chosen. Muslims have and do.
Woody
You're absolutely right; when gun owners write, we don't call them "books," we call them "manifestos."
The Muslims that we encounter in the U.S. are, by and large, either running away from the negative aspects of Islamic culture or seeking opportunities that can only be found here (by virtue of the enlightened culture of the West).
Muslims are by and large peaceful but "submit to" or tolerate scriptures that can be used to justify violence against innocents. Islam means forceful submission, does it not?
If you respect scriptures that promote and justify violence in the name of righteous, forceful conquest, then there is a serious problem with you. The terrorists are not always misfits - some have been doctors and engineers.....proof that something is seriously wrong with Islam itself.
At a minimum, Muslim (no - let's say "All") immigrants should be required to renounce violence and human rights abuses before being granted entry. They then should self-police their own communities and report violators so they can be duly deported.
"A manifesto is a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government.
Interesting. That would make the Holy Bible and the Koran manifestos. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution would also be manifestos. I'm a gun owner and have never written anything close to the Holy Bible, the Koran, the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, but I am certainly happy to be held in the same regard as the authors of those works.
Thank you!
Woody
No, just means submission.
You are correct in the literal sense, I believe. But in practice there has been wide spread forced submission.
I'm still interested in the assertion that the violent or extreme Muslims, or those who agree with them and support them, but aren't willing to do the dirty work themselves are a "fraction" or a "tiny minority" of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims.
I mean... we have whole nations - and not just small, isolated nations - where this is the view of the general public and essentially the law of the land. Oppression of women, arrest and beatings and even legal and government-sanctioned and -implemented execution of people who are deemed to have simply insulted Islam or accused of blasphemy.
Even in our so-called "moderate" Muslim states, there are still plenty of examples of persecution in everyday life. Turkey was mentioned as one of these, but I had a colleague who was a "Westernized" Turkish woman, didn't wear a hijab or any of that, yet still was under incredible family pressure to not just submit, but literally subjugate her own career and desires to those of her husband. I realize this could be said anywhere, lots of American-born women end up in the same boat, but I'm not under any illusions that women in such a state have any choice whatsoever, from my conversations with this woman, who ended up having to quit her residency at the drop of a hat and start over somewhere else - losing credit for her last year's work, with no say whatsoever.
We've seen the poll numbers of many of these countries, and the numbers don't equate to a tiny minority at all. We can point out extremism in Christianity, and we can point at idiots like Westboro, etc. However, even though those types of groups are universally decried as NOT representing the majority of Christians, nor the Christian idealogy, they are still not a violent group. When we DO run into a person or group who claims they are a Christian and are advocating or committing violent acts, they are quickly and loudly condemned nearly across the board, both nationally and internationally. And there are certainly no examples of such extremism being noted to control entire governments or countries around the world.
I would submit we have a number of entire nations around the world where it appears - admittedly, based on the news coverage to which we have access - that the oppression of women (both politically and physically and violently) and other groups (such as homosexuals, etc.), Christians and other non-Islamic religious groups, etc., are systematically marginalized and outcast. Often actually violently oppressed. Large crowds regularly demonstrating in support of such tactics, large sections of the government controlled by such ideology, etc. Of course we could point out our own allies like Saudi Arabia (an economic ally only), but plenty of Middle Eastern countries, but also places like Pakistan (180 million), Indonesia (205 million), Yemen (24M), Egypt (73M), Syria (21M), Somalia (11M), Malaysia (17M), Bangladesh (145M), Nigeria (75M), Afghanistan (30M), Iran (75M)....
These are the numbers of Muslims in those countries, I think most of those countries we could easily argue have a general antipathy or actual outright animosity towards Western culture and/or ideals, if not outright hate towards the American .gov and population in general. I think those are EASY arguments to make... and that list holds 856 million people. These are countries where we have people in prison on death row for "blasphemy", where we still routinely see forced marriages, honor killings, female mutilation and oppression, etc. On a very large scale.
Do we really want to argue that ANY of those states hold anything like a moderate or favorable view towards Western culture or American/Western ideals? Do we really think that? Can anyone here honestly say they believe on an intellectual basis, from what we have seen in the news coming from these countries in the last decade or two, that they are anything other than our own opposite ideologically and in terms of tolerance of other views and/or cultures? That list alone accounts for nearly half of the Islamic community worldwide, and doesn't even incorporate those we might "question" as possibly more moderate, such as Turkey, Saudi, Jordan, etc.
Look at the numbers of people who hate us, and hate Western values in any form - look at the numbers, people. It's not a "fraction" and it's not a "tiny minority".
I mean... we have whole nations - and not just small, isolated nations - where this is the view of the general public and essentially the law of the land. Oppression of women, arrest and beatings and even legal and government-sanctioned and -implemented execution of people who are deemed to have simply insulted Islam or accused of blasphemy.
Even in our so-called "moderate" Muslim states, there are still plenty of examples of persecution in everyday life. Turkey was mentioned as one of these, but I had a colleague who was a "Westernized" Turkish woman, didn't wear a hijab or any of that, yet still was under incredible family pressure to not just submit, but literally subjugate her own career and desires to those of her husband. I realize this could be said anywhere, lots of American-born women end up in the same boat, but I'm not under any illusions that women in such a state have any choice whatsoever, from my conversations with this woman, who ended up having to quit her residency at the drop of a hat and start over somewhere else - losing credit for her last year's work, with no say whatsoever.
We've seen the poll numbers of many of these countries, and the numbers don't equate to a tiny minority at all. We can point out extremism in Christianity, and we can point at idiots like Westboro, etc. However, even though those types of groups are universally decried as NOT representing the majority of Christians, nor the Christian idealogy, they are still not a violent group. When we DO run into a person or group who claims they are a Christian and are advocating or committing violent acts, they are quickly and loudly condemned nearly across the board, both nationally and internationally. And there are certainly no examples of such extremism being noted to control entire governments or countries around the world.
I would submit we have a number of entire nations around the world where it appears - admittedly, based on the news coverage to which we have access - that the oppression of women (both politically and physically and violently) and other groups (such as homosexuals, etc.), Christians and other non-Islamic religious groups, etc., are systematically marginalized and outcast. Often actually violently oppressed. Large crowds regularly demonstrating in support of such tactics, large sections of the government controlled by such ideology, etc. Of course we could point out our own allies like Saudi Arabia (an economic ally only), but plenty of Middle Eastern countries, but also places like Pakistan (180 million), Indonesia (205 million), Yemen (24M), Egypt (73M), Syria (21M), Somalia (11M), Malaysia (17M), Bangladesh (145M), Nigeria (75M), Afghanistan (30M), Iran (75M)....
These are the numbers of Muslims in those countries, I think most of those countries we could easily argue have a general antipathy or actual outright animosity towards Western culture and/or ideals, if not outright hate towards the American .gov and population in general. I think those are EASY arguments to make... and that list holds 856 million people. These are countries where we have people in prison on death row for "blasphemy", where we still routinely see forced marriages, honor killings, female mutilation and oppression, etc. On a very large scale.
Do we really want to argue that ANY of those states hold anything like a moderate or favorable view towards Western culture or American/Western ideals? Do we really think that? Can anyone here honestly say they believe on an intellectual basis, from what we have seen in the news coming from these countries in the last decade or two, that they are anything other than our own opposite ideologically and in terms of tolerance of other views and/or cultures? That list alone accounts for nearly half of the Islamic community worldwide, and doesn't even incorporate those we might "question" as possibly more moderate, such as Turkey, Saudi, Jordan, etc.
Look at the numbers of people who hate us, and hate Western values in any form - look at the numbers, people. It's not a "fraction" and it's not a "tiny minority".
ace on the turn can only use out of context references when it comes to biblical quotes, dude is seriously f'd
Well thought out response tR.
I can't help but draw a parallel to Bin Laden's Letter to America in which he blamed the people of the United States for the actions of our government...saying we are culpable even if we ourselves didn't take any actions against the Muslims world.
So, saying that Muslims living in countries with oppressive governments and societies are to blame for Muslim extremism, and should be counted in the numbers of those perpetrating violent acts because they haven't risen up to stop it, is to agree with Osama Bin Laden's rationale used to construct his justification for attacking America.
I'll have to let the implications of that simmer for a bit.
I can't help but draw a parallel to Bin Laden's Letter to America in which he blamed the people of the United States for the actions of our government...saying we are culpable even if we ourselves didn't take any actions against the Muslims world.
So, saying that Muslims living in countries with oppressive governments and societies are to blame for Muslim extremism, and should be counted in the numbers of those perpetrating violent acts because they haven't risen up to stop it, is to agree with Osama Bin Laden's rationale used to construct his justification for attacking America.
I'll have to let the implications of that simmer for a bit.
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