When Islam infiltrates the US

[sanjuro893]

I get it and that fair, but all I'm going to say is that you just referenced the koran, it's pretty descriptive in what it wants done to gays, non-believers, etc is it not? Its just that it seems that the "good" ones choose not to follow it. To me, that's faith twisting people.

Actually the Koran is descriptive of how immoral it considers homosexuality and says that gays should be punished but from what I know is nonspecific as to how. There ARE a lot of references to Sodom so many people believe that to mean they should be stoned to death, but I think that's reading a lot into it. (It's been years before this thread began when I last read any of this stuff, if you can find a direct reference in there of being put to death, I'll definitely listen.) I argued extensively earlier with GTG about what I believe about "killing the unbelievers" and that most people (especially extremists) are taking that out of context.
The Hadith DOES say to kill gays, etc. but that's the Hadith and there's even MORE arguments from scholars, etc about the correct translations of those writings as the Koran. Each major sect of Islam follows a certain section of the Hadith depending on Sunni or Shia and so on,smaller sects of Islam dont believe in following the Hadith at all and just say to follow the Koran so I've always taken the Hadith to be something more inspired by men and their shortcomings than God.

 

[Dale00]

Of course! I could absolutely be dead wrong about all of this. That being said, I'll trust my own experiences with that culture and faith and the people I've met over some folks who lump them into one giant group, and their only contact with Muslims is when they see them from a distance in WalMart.

Consider the "foundational stories" of Islam. They are important. The people you know and respect and who received you warmly perhaps have put aside many Islamic core beliefs - they are restive Muslims, if you will. In their hearts they have absolutely no interest in violence. I get that.

An engaged Muslim believer will celebrate the victory of Mohammad over Medina. It is quite a vile thing that was done there.

But will a restive Muslim condemn the violence of Mohammad at Medina and elsewhere? I do not believe so.

Christians struggle with the violence done on unbelievers in the Old Testament. None celebrate it - not one person. We are not commanded to be violent but rather to love others.

 

[JD8]

Actually the Koran is descriptive of how immoral it considers homosexuality and says that gays should be punished but from what I know is nonspecific as to how. There ARE a lot of references to Sodom so many people believe that to mean they should be stoned to death, but I think that's reading a lot into it. (It's been years before this thread began when I last read any of this stuff, if you can find a direct reference in there of being put to death, I'll definitely listen.) I argued extensively earlier with GTG about what I believe about "killing the unbelievers" and that most people (especially extremists) are taking that out of context.
The Hadith DOES say to kill gays, etc. but that's the Hadith and there's even MORE arguments from scholars, etc about the correct translations of those writings as the Koran. Each major sect of Islam follows a certain section of the Hadith depending on Sunni or Shia and so on,smaller sects of Islam dont believe in following the Hadith at all and just say to follow the Koran so I've always taken the Hadith to be something more inspired by men and their shortcomings than God.

Me personally, I stop at gays, non-believers, etc should be punished. I won't respect a religion if this is it's teachings, the actual punishment intent is mental masturbation.

 

[sanjuro893]

Consider the "foundational stories" of Islam. They are important. The people you know and respect and who received you warmly perhaps have put aside many Islamic core beliefs - they are restive Muslims, if you will. In their hearts they have absolutely no interest in violence. I get that.

An engaged Muslim believer will celebrate the victory of Mohammad over Medina. It is quite a vile thing that was done there.

But will a restive Muslim condemn the violence of Mohammad at Medina and elsewhere? I do not believe so.

Christians struggle with the violence done on unbelievers in the Old Testament. None celebrate it - not one person. We are not commanded to be violent but rather to love others.

I get that and it does bother me as does the acceptance of the treatment of other people like women and homosexuals, etc. I never said I was okay with it or it was acceptable to me. I just cant say with certainty whether that's the faith perverting the people or if that's a people perverting that faith, ya know? Based on my experience, it's the latter, either way it sucks. On the bright side, though, I know what my faith is and I'm in no danger of converting.

 

[sanjuro893]

Me personally, I stop at gays, non-believers, etc should be punished. I won't respect a religion if this is it's teachings, the actual punishment intent is mental masturbation.

Understood. I dont think people should be punished for being different or believing differently or have to cover themselves cuz they have boobies. There are many things in the Koran I disagree with: the jadziya tax, complete abstinence of alcohol, it states women are the root of all lust and but then turns around and makes provisions for men to "temporarily marry" them.... none of that makes any sense to me

 

[JD8]

Understood. I dont think people should be punished for being different or believing differently or have to cover themselves cuz they have boobies. There are many things in the Koran I disagree with: the jadziya tax, complete abstinence of alcohol, it states women are the root of all lust and but then turns around and makes provisions for men to "temporarily marry" them.... none of that makes any sense to me

They can cover or wear whatever they wish, don't care what they eat or don't, and I definitely don't care if they fast on certain days. It's the judgement upon me for not believing in, or adhering to, their god, to which I have an issue with.

 

[Dave70968]

They can cover or wear whatever they wish, don't care what they eat or don't, and I definitely don't care if they fast on certain days. It's the judgement upon me for not believing in, or adhering to, their god, to which I have an issue with.

I don't care if they judge. It's when they take action that it becomes a problem.

I don't believe in thoughtcrime, and I certainly don't believe it should be the capital crime that some here seem to think it should.

 

[sanjuro893]

They can cover or wear whatever they wish, don't care what they eat or don't, and I definitely don't care if they fast on certain days. It's the judgement upon me for not believing in, or adhering to, their god, to which I have an issue with.

I get that but as you stated before you have that issue with any faith, man. I don't think you're wrong to have that issue, either. It frustrates me to no end to be judged by fellow Christians who think I'm just "doing it wrong".

 

[JD8]

I don't care if they judge. It's when they take action that it becomes a problem.

I don't believe in thoughtcrime, and I certainly don't believe it should be the capital crime that some here seem to think it should.

To clarify, I don't believe in "thoughtcrime" it's just that the judgement typically leads to action.

 

[JD8]

I get that but as you stated before you have that issue with any faith, man. I don't think you're wrong to have that issue, either. It frustrates me to no end to be judged by fellow Christians who think I'm just "doing it wrong".

I don't have issue with any faith, just ones that has led to or currently leads to the harm of others and that would otherwise persecute me for believing what I believe.