Why closing the "Gun Show Loop Hole" leads to registration of all weapons

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abajaj11

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Seems like some republicans may be looking to cave on the "gun show loophole" and may be OK with requiring federally mandated NIC checks for ALL sales, even those private FTF sales in states.

Here IMHO is why this is a really bad idea:

1. There is no Gun show loophole. The exact same state and federal laws hold IN a gun show as outside it. Closing the "gun show loophole" means basically mandating at the federal level that all sales of firearms HAVE to go through NIC checks (Form 4473). The Federal government should have no jurisdiction to regulate commerce within a state, so this may be a hard one to pass constitutional muster. However, it may be the Dems are hoping they can say that "if a firearm was used once in interstate commerce then we can regulate it forever". This argument has already been upheld by the US Supreme court in the GunFree School Zones Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990)

2. Think about how a federally mandated background check on ALL firearms will be implemented. Right now, only firearms sold through FFL dealers have to pass a NICs (Form 4473) test in all states, and in some states the state laws mandate that all transfers have to be through an FFL dealer. The feds regulate the FFL dealers and do not keep records of transactions, but the FFL dealers have to. If an FFL dealer goes out of business, those records go to ATF for storage, and are never lost. Now imagine extending this requirement to ALL buyers and sellers of firearms. Well this is impossible.

So the feds will say, well let us just require all states to do what california, for example, does already. All transfers must go through an FFL. But what to do about the millions of unregistered guns in the USA? How do the feds know who owns them? If they don't know who owns them, how will they verify that ALL guns are being sold after a NICS check? Well, the FEDs will come back and say: "We cannot implement your new law unless you allow us to register all firearms". So the inevitable next step to mandating background check on ALL firearm sales will be a demand to Congress that all firearms be registered, without which the law will be impossible to enforce.

Registration is a VERY bad idea. Registration will not prevent a crime since a legal gun may be stolen and used by a criminal (like in the Newtown case) and of course a criminal will never register an illegitimate gun they may already own.
So, the only reason for registration is keeping tabs on legal gun owners, and if needed, confiscation of firearms.

Since the 2A was written to provide a well regulated (trained) populace that could be stronger than any standing army that a tyrant could raise, the LAST thing the armed populace wants is for potential tyrants to know who has what firearm. That is why this insidious "background checks for all sales" bill MUST be resisted. it will open the door to registration in a year or two.
Just my 2 cents.
:)
 
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okiebryan

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Thank you for answering the question I posted in General the other day. You have done a good job connecting the dots.

I never thought that there was anything good that could come out of registration. I don't agree with that at all. Also, I didn't realize that the person to person sales were not yet in the purview of the Feds with the commerce clause.
 

abajaj11

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Thank you for answering the question I posted in General the other day. You have done a good job connecting the dots.

I never thought that there was anything good that could come out of registration. I don't agree with that at all. Also, I didn't realize that the person to person sales were not yet in the purview of the Feds with the commerce clause.
You are welcome. Please feel to repost on other sites as much as you like!
Feds can only regulate interstate commerce, and an FTF transaction within a state falls under state law. they would have to really stretch the argument that they should be allowed to mandate anything related to an FTF in-state sale of anything, including a firearm.

On the registration front, it's amazing to me how often pro-2A folks assume that they need to "register" a gun when they buy it.
You know, like a car......
Well, as many of us likely already know, first of all and most important, owning a car without infringement is not constitutionally protected, owning a firearm is.
Second, when you drive a car you can potentially hurt others if it is not in good repair on the road. A car is an object that is taken out and used in general society. It is generally visible and almost impossible to conceal.
Firearms are not socially visible objects out in general society. They are easy to conceal, and are not taken out and used in society, unless by a criminal or someone acting in legitimate self-defense. They may be worn openly in a safe fashion, but this is about the extent of their visibility in day to day life.
As such, what could be the purpose of registering firearms, if not to monitor owners in the privacy of their dwellings? And to confiscate if needed?
No crime will be prevented if firearms are registered.
:)
 

okiebryan

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The ONLY reason that cars are registered is because they are used on public roads, built and maintained with PUBLIC money. Your registration is part of the taxes used to pay for that.

People who say we register cars, so we should register guns are putting forth a false equivalence. Sure, I'll register a gun, if the government builds gun ranges in every neighborhood with taxpayer supplied practice ammo.
 

LightningCrash

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The ONLY reason that cars are registered is because they are used on public roads, built and maintained with PUBLIC money. Your registration is part of the taxes used to pay for that.

People who say we register cars, so we should register guns are putting forth a false equivalence. Sure, I'll register a gun, if the government builds gun ranges in every neighborhood with taxpayer supplied practice ammo.

+1
letting a car rot in your garage requires a lot less paperwork than when you want to use it on the road.
 

abajaj11

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Gun Registration = Bad Idea...

You bet. It always leads to confiscation. Check out:
http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/gun-registration-is-gun-confiscation.html

The lefties goal in this run may be to throw a bunch of bills at us, and then "negotiate" to get one passed...the "least harmful", "common-sense" one: that of requiring background checks on ALL gun sales.
Then a couple of years down the line, when the US Supreme Court structure has been changed to one more anti 2A, they will turn around and say, "Now, we need common sense registration of all firearms to enforce background checks on all sales". Then in 2 years after that, America will have been disarmed.
I think this will be their strategy: a 4 year plan to disarm America.
We need to be totally on guard for this "commonsense background check on all sales rule", because it will inevitably lead to registration of firearms: the holy grail for all gun banners.
Please write to all congressmen, senators and to anyone else you think can influence this debate.

:)
 
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MoBoost

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The ONLY reason that cars are registered is because they are used on public roads, built and maintained with PUBLIC money. Your registration is part of the taxes used to pay for that.

People who say we register cars, so we should register guns are putting forth a false equivalence. Sure, I'll register a gun, if the government builds gun ranges in every neighborhood with taxpayer supplied practice ammo.

Damn, dude, you woke up on the different side of the bed today? :thumbup3:
 

cmhbob

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Excellent post, abajaj11.

As far as cars, here's a few points for when people try to equate cars and guns:
  • Once I register my car in my home state, I can drive it anywhere in the country without re-registering it.
  • There are no restrictions on color, accessories etc.
  • My state driver license allows me to drive almost any vehicle anywhere in the country.
  • There are no restrictions on how many vehicles I can own.
  • There are no practical restrictions on engine size or fuel tank size.
  • There are no practical storage requirements.
  • I don't have to get federal permission to drive my high-performance car to another state.
 

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