Religious Topics and Questions

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Rob72

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I used to think that as well, in a sense, it would come down to works. But the bible says we're saved by grace, not by works and that it is not of ourselves less anyone should boast.

If we choose to believe, we are essentially saving ourselves. Yet the bible teaches otherwise. It contradicts scripture.

Okay, you're tackeling a biggie.

1) The logical fallacy of the "loving" God. "Loving" does not mean all accepting. God does love us. We assume that you love your children. Loving your son would not mean that it would be "okay" for him to torture, rape, and kill his sister.

In the same context, God is righteous (perfect) and imperfection cannot exist in his presence. Under OT, purification meant ritualistic process and following the law. This is the reason that the High Priest wore a robe with bells on the hem, and a rope around his waist when entering the inner chamber.

Equally(and getting back to my incestuous analogy), if there is no greater (or lesser) sin, and all sin being equal, we are all guilty of henious violation of our relationships with God, and each other. Grace will save us from eternal seperation from God, contemplation of grace and its meaning will (hopefully) help us with better decision-making, but it will not save us from physical consequences. (See #2...)

2) We suffer the consequences of the sin of others. This is the concept of generational sin. Whether it is a genetic defect carried by a parent, or a family/community disagreement, our actions effect those around us, our family, and our children. Being familiar with genetics really makes this a profound insight. "Nurture" contributes a fair amount to an individual, but "nature" can be a shining glory or a 14 ton anchor. Nature exceeds nurture, under stress.(See #3...)

3) The fallacy of "fair". Free-choice for all means life won't be fair. Period. The only time #2 is mitigated, in real-time (nature>nurture), is when we actively pursue a relationship with God. If that relationship is strong, heuristic options that are not discernible to nature become apparent with nurturing.

In relation to free choice, we know that our perceptions physically alter reality, on a sub-atomic level. God is both inside and outside our "reality". Clearly, there are key "landmarks" where He intervenes, both persoanlly and nationally, but His knowledge does not alter our reality the way our own knwoledge does. Physicists feel free to chime in here...:respect:

4) The last thing I would toss out there is that Judeo-Christianity makes sense. Some things are allegorical, much (possibly even "most") is not. We know that homo-sapiens today are derived from a "pure" genetic strain. How long was that chain unlatered? Dunno. But, the knowledge fits well with a binary (or very limited) breeding pair and their progeny establishing a species. It also fits well with the decreasing lifespans noted in the OT.

5) James 2: 14-20, faith without works is as dead as works without faith, to paraphrase. Faith is intended to direct your works, in short.

I studied quite a few different religions in my teens/early 20s. Homo-sapeins are not DNA-traces from tigers (Bhuddists), or any other species, so that discounts Animistic religions across the board.


Finally, remember, the Talmud and the NT are books. They are not the history of every living thing, and there are certainly some mysteries (Melchizadech is a great example).

I would strongly recommend the Hebrew Bible http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Hebrew-Bible-John-Collins/dp/0800629914/ref=tmm_pap_title_0#_

I like the KJ, but this was translated from the Talmud and NT scrolls(largely Aramaeic) by Jews, for Jews, and is arguably the most accurate translation available.


Last, but not least, if all religions seem to have some common themes ("everything is cool, tolerance, ecumenicalism, etc., etc.."), consider the game "telephone". Group of kids sit around, and one whispers a message to the person next to them, and it gets passed along. by the end, most of us know, its generally pretty different from what was originally said. MHO is that we've had the originator of the message come back to give us a gentle reminder at the halfway point. According to Him, its our job to make sure we get that word out.:cool:
 

MaddSkillz

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But the Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by man. It may be the word of God, but unless the devine wrote it personally, how do we know the message as we know it is correct?

There was a woman on the radio yesterday talking about how many different stories were written and how the ones that ended up in the bible were chosen. It was a very interesting discussion and probably one that many people haven't thought fully about. How did the books that ended up there get picked over other versions that differed? The woman points out that the Bible, like many other books was subject to manipulation for political gains and control.

Now, this doesn't make the words in these books any less important or true, but to assume that the Bible is absolute truth seems a stretch given that it was written by man.

Yup!!! Here's an example.

Galatians 2:16
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

That's the NIV.


And now for the King James Version.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:19
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Faith IN Christ and the Faith OF Christ are two completely different things... So which one is it? I believe I know, but this is a great example of how a fundamental theology is based on a simple translation or mistranslation of the words, "in" and "of."
 

donner

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Yup!!! Here's an example.

Galatians 2:16
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

That's the NIV.


And now for the King James Version.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:19
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Faith IN Christ and the Faith OF Christ are two completely different things... So which one is it? I believe I know, but this is a great example of how a fundamental theology is based on a simple translation or mistranslation of the words, "in" and "of."

Yep. How do we know which version is right and the true word of God? Wouldn't the first Bibles have been in latin? That would mean that unless God then dictated a translation into english/spanish/etc that the current versions we read are subject to the flaws of man since a man would have had to interpret the latin to translate it.
 

MaddSkillz

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Yep. How do we know which version is right and the true word of God? Wouldn't the first Bibles have been in latin? That would mean that unless God then dictated a translation into english/spanish/etc that the current versions we read are subject to the flaws of man since a man would have had to interpret the latin to translate it.

Yup and the King James version for example takes 13 different Greek words in the New Testament and translates them all into the English word, "departed." I guess we're to believe these 13 different words all mean "departed." Yeah, that makes sense... I mean, the Greeks just invented 13 words that all meant the same thing. Huh?

Oh sorry, just ranting here. heh
 

Shooter00

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So what it all boils down to, whether we are make free will choice or what version of the bible we're going to read, is Truth. If we are really looking for Truth, we'll find it. Jesus said it in Matthew 7:7.

God is perfect in all things. It's us and our understanding that is flawed. He is for us, He made us. It's the enemy that causes us to not get it. It's the reason that we have over 150 different denominations of Christianity, that pastors have gay flings, that a sunday school teacher has little Suzy sit on his lap, that the media comes so hard against that which is good.

If you sit down and read what Jesus had to say, you'll find nothing bad in it. He shows us how to be good, how to be righteous and how to realize our true identity. At the root of it, it's not about taking away, or what we can't do, but taking posession of what is truely ours. Understanding that He made us to be a huge part of His Kingdom, to rule and reign with Him. We can all be kings with Him, and we don't even know it.
 

gillman7

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But the Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by man. It may be the word of God, but unless the devine wrote it personally, how do we know the message as we know it is correct?

There was a woman on the radio yesterday talking about how many different stories were written and how the ones that ended up in the bible were chosen. It was a very interesting discussion and probably one that many people haven't thought fully about. How did the books that ended up there get picked over other versions that differed? The woman points out that the Bible, like many other books was subject to manipulation for political gains and control.

Now, this doesn't make the words in these books any less important or true, but to assume that the Bible is absolute truth seems a stretch given that it was written by man.

Here in is another point of faith. I believe it is the very Word of God, and in that it is infallible. To me, it is a far greater stretch to believe that the One that created and holds together all things could not direct his creation to scribe his very words. Scripture also says that it was written by men carried along by the Holy Spirit. If you do not hold to the whole of Scripture, you run the real danger of a smorgasboard belief system. I will have some salvation, no hell thank you, a little sanctification, but no 10 commandments.

Very well stated... And yet somehow we're lead to believe that even with the flesh, we're somehow to make a conscience decision, not influenced by any thing (free will) to believe in Christ or else.

To believe that way is to believe in the high chances of failure. That's not the God I believe in. I believe in a God who saved each an every one of us. :)

Here is where I would disagree. What you are talking about is Universalism. The problem is that the Bible teaches otherwise. If one person goes to a place called Hell, then all of Universalism falls apart. Is Hell a burning place with pitchforks, or simply separation from God? The Bible specifically says he came for his Elect, or Bride.

Yup!!! Here's an example.

Galatians 2:16
We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

That's the NIV.


And now for the King James Version.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:19
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Faith IN Christ and the Faith OF Christ are two completely different things... So which one is it? I believe I know, but this is a great example of how a fundamental theology is based on a simple translation or mistranslation of the words, "in" and "of."

Yes and no, I think. The problem lies not in just the translation, but the context of who it was written to. Paul was writing to the Galatians. A church of Jews that grew up their entire lives following the law, and believing the OT system was the way to redemption. They had the laws down pat, they were sure their religion was going to save them. They could not look at the spirit of the sacrificial system pointing to the One that was coming. And now, they have to accept that they themselves crucified the One they had waited for for all time. I actually lean toward the KJV in this instance. One is a translation, the other is a transliteration, there is a difference.
 

MaddSkillz

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Here is where I would disagree. What you are talking about is Universalism. The problem is that the Bible teaches otherwise. If one person goes to a place called Hell, then all of Universalism falls apart. Is Hell a burning place with pitchforks, or simply separation from God? The Bible specifically says he came for his Elect, or Bride.

No, I'm not talking about universalism. I believe as the bible says, all will be reconciled to Christ one day. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. There's a special place for believers in the grand plan but that doesn't mean that unbelievers are separated from Christ for all of eternity. The Bible does not say that, anywhere.

1 Timothy 4:10
God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers.



Yes and no, I think. The problem lies not in just the translation, but the context of who it was written to. Paul was writing to the Galatians. A church of Jews that grew up their entire lives following the law, and believing the OT system was the way to redemption. They had the laws down pat, they were sure their religion was going to save them. They could not look at the spirit of the sacrificial system pointing to the One that was coming. And now, they have to accept that they themselves crucified the One they had waited for for all time. I actually lean toward the KJV in this instance. One is a translation, the other is a transliteration, there is a difference.

I agree wit the KJV here as well. And I believe it is the faith of Christ that is referred to in Ephesians 2:8,9.
 

Shooter00

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As far as the Bible being open for interpretation, I beleive so. That's why there are four gospels of the same account, so we can see different perspectives. The rest of the New Testament are all letters, never written with the intention of being "holy scripture." So like in the case of Timothy, he was getting instruction on how to proceed with the boys over at Ephesus. If we take it literally, we can really do some damage. If we understand the time and the place for which it was written, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can start to see why God orchestrated the book in the way He did.

One big part that so may leave out is prayer. If He's out there, and this isn't some big scam, He says He'll answer us if we ask. Too many times we don't like the answer because He convicts us with it and we run back under our rock.
 

gillman7

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So what it all boils down to, whether we are make free will choice or what version of the bible we're going to read, is Truth. If we are really looking for Truth, we'll find it. Jesus said it in Matthew 7:7.

God is perfect in all things. It's us and our understanding that is flawed. He is for us, He made us. It's the enemy that causes us to not get it. It's the reason that we have over 150 different denominations of Christianity, that pastors have gay flings, that a sunday school teacher has little Suzy sit on his lap, that the media comes so hard against that which is good.

If you sit down and read what Jesus had to say, you'll find nothing bad in it. He shows us how to be good, how to be righteous and how to realize our true identity. At the root of it, it's not about taking away, or what we can't do, but taking posession of what is truely ours. Understanding that He made us to be a huge part of His Kingdom, to rule and reign with Him. We can all be kings with Him, and we don't even know it.

The only issue I have with this is it seems to be limiting God to one facet of himself. We, ( I include myself in this) have a tendency to say God is love, but then ignore his wrath. He is a Sovereign ruler, but also my Father. We have to plead to him for needs and praise, but the Holy Spirit is one that comes along side of us. He is in Heaven, but lives within you. He is the one true God, but is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ himself prayed to his Father, but he was God.

Either Christ was the most magnificent charlatan of all time, or He was who He said He is. He inspired a canon of Scripture that has endured, the world's calendar revolves around his life.
 
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