Prosperity Gospel/Seed Faith

[TerryMiller]

A lot of folks in the prosperity gospel movement glom on to Jeremiah 29:11, from the NIV.
First of all, if you look at the original text, where the NIV says prosper, the original text uses the word shalom. You may recognize this as a Hebrew greeting, it means peace. Also, where the NIV says "hope and a future." the original text uses the words "tiqvah achariyth" tiqvah litterally means a cord but is often used to mean "what is expected", and achariyth means end. He's not promising some abundance here, he's just promising peace and a normal life.

Secondly, I believe some things in scripture are specifically said to one person. I believe this passage of Jeremiah is one of those instances.

I've been told by biblical scholars that the American Standard Version of 1901 is the closest translation, word for word, of all the bible versions. Here is that verse from Jeremiah from the ASV.

"11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith Jehovah, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you hope in your latter end."

In reading the whole chapter, I actually think this was directed to all those taken captive and taken to Babylon. Verse 11 falls after the author states that Jehovah has spoken of the future of the captives. Verse 10 is below.

" For thus saith Jehovah, After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."

 

[Blinocac200sx]

I've been told by biblical scholars that the American Standard Version of 1901 is the closest translation, word for word, of all the bible versions. Here is that verse from Jeremiah from the ASV.

"11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith Jehovah, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you hope in your latter end."

In reading the whole chapter, I actually think this was directed to all those taken captive and taken to Babylon. Verse 11 falls after the author states that Jehovah has spoken of the future of the captives. Verse 10 is below.

" For thus saith Jehovah, After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place."

I consider that a possibility as well, however that is still a specific group of people, and not a promise to all believers.

 

[DavidMcmillan]

You know, I have to wonder about some of you. You are turned off because of some phony Christians you have met, or know of. I can certainly agree that there are hypocrites, liars, cheats, etc. in the Christian community, and they turn me off also.

However, in my journey through the shooting community, I have certainly fun into a mix of liars, hypocrites, jerks, and cheats, but that didn't stop me from enjoying the fellowship of other shooters, and the opportunity to learn so much more than I could have ever learned on my own.

Likewise, there are doctors, lawyers, teachers, law enforcement officers, and other professionals that are not as pure as I would like them to be, but I'm sure glad we have them available when we need them.

That said, of all the people I deal with, my Christian friends are the ones who have been the best friends in my life. They have never cheated me, lied to me, or tried to take advantage of me. They are the ones that have visited me in the hospital, stood beside me at the death of loved ones, and are the ones with which I cam share my most secret thoughts.

My faith in God, and in Jesus Christ as my Savior, is the single guiding principle in my life.

I have faith in God, for one reason, because I don't have enough faith to believe that the complexity and repeatability of human life and nature just happens by accident.

I have met many of you, and a great many of you have seemed like people I would enjoy being around on a regular basis. Because I care for my family and friends, My hope that would be that you would find the quality of life and assurance of eternity that I have found. But, I would never impose that belief on anyone.

 

[JB Books]

dlmcm:

I understand what you are saying, but I submit there is a distinct difference in Christian hypocrites (especially ministers) and hypocrites in other professions.

First, ministers, in particular, are held to a higher standard. How can a minister expect to preach, teach, and shepherd a flock if their own house is not in order. Is there not a Bible verse that says something to the effect of "get the beam out your own eye before you try to help your neighbor remove the splinter from his?" Certainly, all men are subject to folly and sin. No one is perfect, but if you are going to try to tell people how to live, shouldn't you, yourself, follow your own teachings? So, in my opinion, it is quite different than hypocrites in other professions.

Second, many of these guys are simply self-absorbed snake oil salesmen. They take people, many of whom are in very transitional, emotionally fragile points in their lives, and tell them that "they are chosen" and their problems are "the Devil's fault," and then offer solutions designed to line their own pockets. I'm not talking about getting money to support the ministry, building funds, or even missions trips.

Third, these ministers have a tendency to use people and then discard them when they are no longer needed. Some of them do this in their personal life as well as their church life. I had a young man as a client who had been part of a mega church's team. He was worked and treated like a dog. It left some serious emotional scars on him.

Fourth, many of these guys engage in the cult of personality. The arrogance and entitlement are so thick, you can cut them with a knife. Why is the focus on them and their showmanship rather than Christ's message? Why do their members fall all over themselves to get close to the minister and his family? A true servant of God would shun such a situation.

Finally, how can these guys take so much money to live lavish lifestyles? Money from people, many of whom are barely making it. Still, that's not enough, they demand more, and spiritually browbeat their congregation with self-interested, heretical BS such as the prosperity teachings.

Anyway, to be clear, I very much respect those ministers and individuals who struggle every day to live and walk a Christ like path. I particularly respect those who do so with a humble heart, seeking only to glorify Christ's Kingdom and not their own ambition.

 

[Blitzfike]

Can you all imagine how awesome it would be if the church took "donations" at the point of a gun and if you failed to comply they had the authority to shoot or imprison you? I mean they could explain that it was for the common good, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor and what not.

We all worship something...

How did the IRS get in here???

 

[Blitzfike]

dlmcm:

I understand what you are saying, but I submit there is a distinct difference in Christian hypocrites (especially ministers) and hypocrites in other professions.

First, ministers, in particular, are held to a higher standard. How can a minister expect to preach, teach, and shepherd a flock if their own house is not in order. Is there not a Bible verse that says something to the effect of "get the beam out your own eye before you try to help your neighbor remove the splinter from his?" Certainly, all men are subject to folly and sin. No one is perfect, but if you are going to try to tell people how to live, shouldn't you, yourself, follow your own teachings? So, in my opinion, it is quite different than hypocrites in other professions.

Second, many of these guys are simply self-absorbed snake oil salesmen. They take people, many of whom are in very transitional, emotionally fragile points in their lives, and tell them that "they are chosen" and their problems are "the Devil's fault," and then offer solutions designed to line their own pockets. I'm not talking about getting money to support the ministry, building funds, or even missions trips.

Third, these ministers have a tendency to use people and then discard them when they are no longer needed. Some of them do this in their personal life as well as their church life. I had a young man as a client who had been part of a mega church's team. He was worked and treated like a dog. It left some serious emotional scars on him.

Fourth, many of these guys engage in the cult of personality. The arrogance and entitlement are so thick, you can cut them with a knife. Why is the focus on them and their showmanship rather than Christ's message? Why do their members fall all over themselves to get close to the minister and his family? A true servant of God would shun such a situation.

Finally, how can these guys take so much money to live lavish lifestyles? Money from people, many of whom are barely making it. Still, that's not enough, they demand more, and spiritually browbeat their congregation with self-interested, heretical BS such as the prosperity teachings.

Anyway, to be clear, I very much respect those ministers and individuals who struggle every day to live and walk a Christ like path. I particularly respect those who do so with a humble heart, seeking only to glorify Christ's Kingdom and not their own ambition.

This.. Mr. Books says it well.

 

[J.T.]

How did the IRS get in here???

Simply an analogy. Probably the wrong thread based on its beginnings but not where it was headed.

 

[TerryMiller]

dlmcm:

I understand what you are saying, but I submit there is a distinct difference in Christian hypocrites (especially ministers) and hypocrites in other professions.

First, ministers, in particular, are held to a higher standard. How can a minister expect to preach, teach, and shepherd a flock if their own house is not in order. Is there not a Bible verse that says something to the effect of "get the beam out your own eye before you try to help your neighbor remove the splinter from his?" Certainly, all men are subject to folly and sin. No one is perfect, but if you are going to try to tell people how to live, shouldn't you, yourself, follow your own teachings? So, in my opinion, it is quite different than hypocrites in other professions.

Second, many of these guys are simply self-absorbed snake oil salesmen. They take people, many of whom are in very transitional, emotionally fragile points in their lives, and tell them that "they are chosen" and their problems are "the Devil's fault," and then offer solutions designed to line their own pockets. I'm not talking about getting money to support the ministry, building funds, or even missions trips.

Third, these ministers have a tendency to use people and then discard them when they are no longer needed. Some of them do this in their personal life as well as their church life. I had a young man as a client who had been part of a mega church's team. He was worked and treated like a dog. It left some serious emotional scars on him.

Fourth, many of these guys engage in the cult of personality. The arrogance and entitlement are so thick, you can cut them with a knife. Why is the focus on them and their showmanship rather than Christ's message? Why do their members fall all over themselves to get close to the minister and his family? A true servant of God would shun such a situation.

Finally, how can these guys take so much money to live lavish lifestyles? Money from people, many of whom are barely making it. Still, that's not enough, they demand more, and spiritually browbeat their congregation with self-interested, heretical BS such as the prosperity teachings.

Anyway, to be clear, I very much respect those ministers and individuals who struggle every day to live and walk a Christ like path. I particularly respect those who do so with a humble heart, seeking only to glorify Christ's Kingdom and not their own ambition.

This.. Mr. Books says it well.

Agreed. However, I will take some comments I've heard in the past regarding hypocrites. There have been some that said that "they know people that go to church but still do bad, so they are hypocrites." With that thought in mind, I'd like to point out that most of those that attend church regularly are people who, like myself, are sinners and they go in an effort to become better Christians.

More than once, I've chosen a church to attend because I liked the message that came from the minister. But more important than that is the attitude of the other members and how they have related to each other and to visitors and new members.

 

[nofearfactor]

I think the OP was directed at guys like this:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagel...cle_e46d436a-c8b5-5c66-b741-e77196020097.html

 

[Dave70968]

More than once, I've chosen a church to attend because I liked the message that came from the minister. But more important than that is the attitude of the other members and how they have related to each other and to visitors and new members.

This.

I was baptized at University Lutheran in Norman. Many years later, as a student and new resident of Norman, I returned to the church where I was baptized. I showed up on my motorcycle, wearing a leather jacket and a helmet.

They looked down on me.

I didn't return. The church where I was baptized looked down on me without ever getting to know me (and in a university town, no less). I learned all I needed to know that day.

I've since found another church that welcomes me as I am. Actually, more than one, but--and I'll grant that it's entirely a matter of personal preference--one whose message us comforting to me, and one whose services are. I don't count one above the other; both are important.

I suppose it's the connection.