Dodge Half Ton Diesel

[Peace_Maker]

It's still a dodge and for that reason alone I would not buy one. If I want a diesel Dodge, Ford, or Chevy I can already buy one. I can't buy a diesel Tundra and that's the only (half ton) pickup I will own. Might consider a diesel Titan but I really don't think Nissan will actually make one.

 

[Eric_Williams]

I would buy a diesel half-ton just for the fact that i pull quite a bit of smaller stuff, horse trailer, utility trailer with a small tractor, Ect. stuff that doesn't weigh enough to justify buying another 3/4 ton truck but kills the gas mileage in a 1/2 ton truck. This is the area i think a truck like that would shine.

 

[TerryMiller]

One of us is failing at reading comprehension. We can argue about whether or not the Gov't got all of our money back (or not--I agree that they didn't), but it sure looks to me like Fiat did buy out their shares of the stock.

Edit: According to this press release from Fiat, they bought out the shares held by the US Treasury as well as those owned by the Canadian gov't on July 21, 2011.

From the first link of my post with the links:

"The government bailout of General Motors and Chrysler is one of the most polarizing issues of the presidential campaign. Many Americans wonder why $62 billion in tax dollars went to keeping the two automakers afloat in 2008 and 2009. There's little doubt the bailout saved the automakers and huge numbers of jobs. But there's also little chance the government will get all its money back.

Taxpayers are out about $1 billion on the Chrysler bailout. GM stock is selling for less than half the price needed for the government to recover all of its nearly $50 billion investment."

As for that press release from Fiat:

"Fiat and the United States Department of the Treasury (“UST”) also today completed Fiat’s purchase of the 6% fully diluted ownership interest held in Chrysler by UST for a price of US$ 500 million, as contemplated by the agreements entered into in early June."

Perhaps I am having a reading comprehension problem, but please explain that "6% fully diluted ownership interest" and how $500 million is going to cover the $1 billion that the first story says the government will be out. Or, is that $1 billion a phantom number that ignores the debt owed to the government? After all, even you agree that the government isn't getting all of its money back.

 

[dowmace]

I will stick with my 07 and 06 Duramax trucks. I get right at 26MPG empty with the 07 and 19 to 20 pulling my car trailer.

No no you don't.

My 6.0 with the super econo tune will eek out 23 with eggs under the pedal. Few dmax trucks see 20+ even the old heavy half 6.2 trucks were lucky to get 25.

Either your math is off or the truck is lying to you.

 

[SoonerP226]

After all, even you agree that the government isn't getting all of its money back.

That wasn't the question. You said (emphasis added):

....it's a Dodge. In other words, government and union owned.

...to which I replied:

The unions still own their share, but Fiat bought out the shares owned by US and Canadian gov'ts.

...to which you replied:

I don't think Fiat bought out all the shares owned by the two governments.

Both the article you linked and the press release I linked show that Fiat bought all of the shares held by the US and Canadian gov'ts, which left them with no ownership position in Fiasco. They took a loss on the deal, but that doesn't mean that they retain any ownership of the company, only that they're bad at business (which pretty much goes without saying).

 

[TerryMiller]

Looking at your link to the Fiat press release still leaves me scratching my head. They refer to a 1.5% "fully diluted ownership interest" in the Canadian government's share and a 6% "fully diluted ownership interest" in the U.S. government's share. Then down in the footnotes, there are references to Fiat also having the option of buying another 5% and then another 40% of shares from some source referred to as VEBA. So, what is that all about and who owns those two percentages?

All that gobbledy-gook in both the press release and the footnotes about "Ecological Event", "Covered interest", "Class A Interests" and "Class B event" leaves me unsure of whether they have bought it all. Especially since the press release is entitled, "Fiat completes acquisition of Chrysler equity from Canada and the U.S. Department of the Treasury" without a mention of having bought "all" of the stock.

That is what I wanted clarified.

 

[SoonerP226]

First, let me back up a step--when I talked about a reading comprehension problem, I was willing to admit that I was misunderstanding, as well. No offense is intended, and if any was taken, please accept my apologies.

Looking at your link to the Fiat press release still leaves me scratching my head. They refer to a 1.5% "fully diluted ownership interest" in the Canadian government's share and a 6% "fully diluted ownership interest" in the U.S. government's share. Then down in the footnotes, there are references to Fiat also having the option of buying another 5% and then another 40% of shares from some source referred to as VEBA. So, what is that all about and who owns those two percentages?

The gobbledygook is mostly the arcana required to keep from getting your hide nailed to the wall by the SEC. When they say "fully diluted shares," they're covering themselves on the percentages quoted; if some investors exercise stock options, f'rinstance, they could change the absolute number of shares in the company, which would change the percentages quoted. (I'm not sure exactly how that would work, but I think it's something like a big investor exercising an option to convert 10,000 shares of Class A stock into 100,000 shares of Class B stock, or something like that.) It wouldn't change the absolute number of shares that Fiat bought from the two gov'ts, but it would change the percentage of stock that Fiat now controls--which is important, because the main message of the release was that the purchase gave them more than 50% of the stock, which put them completely in control of Chrysler.

What they're saying by "completed the acquisition" is that they bought all of the stock owned by the Canadian gov't and the US Treasury, and that stock, at the time of the statement, amounted to 7.5% of the company's stock, giving them the controlling interest in Chrysler. (Essentially, they're saying, "we own Chrysler, bitches.") That point is further reinforced by the article you linked--the author was saying "that's all we're going to get" because the Treasury no longer owns any stock (if they did, it could, in theory, be sold later to recover more of the investment) and the loans were repaid (or at least decreed to be repaid). In short, the Treasury no longer has any stake Chrysler, and thus has no way to claim any more money from them.

I'm not sure about the 5%, but I'm guessing that may have been an option to buy more of the stock held by Cerberus Capital (which bought Chrysler from Daimler-Benz before the bankruptcy), but I don't know for sure.

The VEBA is the Voluntary Employee Benefits Association, which, in this case, is controlled by the Chrysler unions (I think there are three VEBAs, one for the employees and retirees of each of the Detroit 3, but it has been some time since I studied this). The '08 contract negotiations between the unions and Ford, GM, and Chrysler took place in the shadow of the looming bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler, and to help insure the viability of the Detroit 3, they set up the VEBAs to assume the pension and benefits liabilities of the union employees and retirees. Under the contract, the Detroit 3 each agreed to pay beaucoup bucks to fund the VEBAs and get that tremendous burden off their books. As I recall, Ford mostly paid cash, but GM and Chrysler paid largely in stock; this is Fiat's notice that their purchase contract includes the option to buy up to 40% of the stock originally owned by the VEBA.

 

[TerryMiller]

Thanks. At least your explanation explains most of what was confusing me. I appreciate a more detailed description of what all that language meant. Not being one to be involved with such matters as stock and stock options, etc, a lot of the terminology in that press release just made things worse.

Oh, and no offense taken with regards to the reading comprehension issue. I am one of two moderators on an RV forum and as such, I have to read each and every word of each and every post that is written by each and every forum participant. Because of that, I'm afraid that I occasionally slip off into a speed-read instead of a comprehension-read myself.

While Chrysler may not be indebted to the government any more, they still fell short of obligations, unlike the situation when Lee Iacocca headed the company in that earlier loan bailout. If I remember correctly, under his leadership, they made a full repayment.

 

[Phildo64]

Overseas the Afghan forces had little Ford Rangers that were diesel they were legit!

 

[AKguy1985]

A diesel ranger would be cool.