I think you can use them in Pennsylvania. I'd just end up sticking myself in the foot with one.ATLATLS ONLY, OR BUST!
http://www.google.com/images?q=atla...&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1659&bih=842
What happened to the CMMG muzzleloading AR upper. ???
search google
They have a PSE crossbow upper now. What gives.
search google
They have a PSE crossbow upper now. What gives.
Ok, Now I have time to discuss this subject.
Now for those that think the "modern" inlines are too "modern", I put this up for your reading pleasure, and to put an end to the endless argument.
THE INLINE WAS IN SERVICE BEFORE THE SIDELOCK.
This was gleaned from another "muzzleloader" web site
The thing that we need to remember here is that the type of bullet that a given rifle will shoot best has nothing to do with its looks or style. It has to do with the inside of the barrel. The twist and rifling depth are the major factors that determine the type of projectile that the rifle will handle best.
The outside shape of the barrel and its length have very little to do with the ballistics of that barrel with a given bullet.
By the same token, how the gun is fired has little or no relationship to the external ballistics. Whether the gun is fired with a flintlock, percussion cap, side hammer lock, in-line action or fuse makes no appreciable difference in the ballisticsread trajectory and velocityof the bullet launched by that gun.
A fine, Golden Age Kentucky rifle with a traditional flintlock ignition system can be fitted with a barrel that has shallow rifling and a fast twist to shoot a 500 grain slug type bullet. This gun, while very traditional looking, will shoot exactly the same as the in-line with the same caliber and barrel specifications. The reverse would also be true, if the inline had a round ball barrel mounted.
In 1808, a French gunsmith living and working in England patented a "superior mechanism for the firing of firearms" called, for the lack of a better term, an "in-line" action. The patent is virtually the same as the "new" in-line actions that are on the market. Jean Samuel Pauley, the inventor, actually came up with the mechanism before the percussion cap came into common use. This was a couple of years after the percussion system was invented by the Scottish minister Forsyth. Pauleys patent uses an in-line striker and many of the other things that so . Pauleys patent uses an in-line striker and many of the other things that so inflame the traditionalist. So the percussion in-line is certainly not new.
IBohemian in-line flintlock action by Stanislaus Paczelt, 1738. All flintlock parts are contained within the enclosed action behind the barrel. The touch-hole fires through the breech plug in classic in-line fashion.
To further traditionalize the in-line, the tower of London collections contain an in-line flintlock smooth-bore that was made by a Bohemian gunsmith named Stanislaus Paczelt in 1738. Yes, you read that right, 1738. The action of the gun is almost exactly the same as the modern in-line also. It utilizes coil springs and a shooting and cocking trigger, the cocking trigger to pull the striker containing the flint backward to the cocked position and the shooting trigger to fire the gun. The striker holding the flint drives forward under the tension of the coil spring and hits a frizzen that is hinged onto the barrel breach, rotating up out of the way when hit by the flint, exposing the small pan in the breechplug of the barrel.
When the frizzen is shut, there is nothing projecting beyond the line of the barrela typical in-line featuredated 1738.
In the collections of the National Museum in Munich, Germany, is a double barrel smoothbore gun using the same action for each barrel, but cocked using small cocking knobs on each side of the barrel set, exactly as the modern in-line uses. This gun is in much better shape and was made in the same area by another gunsmith, it would appear. Both guns have stocks that resemble modern shotgun stocks to a surprising degree. The double gun is dated to the last half of the 18th Century.
The stock style of the modern in-line looks more like a modern bolt action rifle than the classic american muzzleloader, which includes the Kentucky style guns and the famous Hawken type rifle of Mountain Man fame. However, if you compare the modern in-line style of stock with English sporting rifles of the late 18th through 19th centuries, youll see some surprising similarities.
The British understood how to build a stock that fit the shooter so that the gun pointed where he looked and handled heavy recoil well. This isnt surprising when you remember that the British were, and still are, basically shotgunners. Their rifle stocks reflected that. Their shotgun stocks of the period were developed to the point that the style has changed very little on classic shotguns of today.
The British gunmakers made sporting guns with flat, shotgun style butt plates, pistol grips and various other things that we see on modern rifles. They simply didnt go in for the hook butt plate and styling of later american muzzleloading guns.
So, the modern look was certainly around at the same time that the more commonly known american guns were being used. The style may not be classic american muzzleloader but its close to the british and continental style and those guns were certainly in use on these shores in the 18th and 19th centuries. The in-line is not as far out in left field as many traditionalists think.
The advantage of the in-line rifle for the average hunter comes from ease of hunting, safeties and other "controls" being more familiar, and an uncluttered top line which allows the mounting of peep sights and scopes with less trouble than the typical side hammer traditional gun.
The hunter that is used to hunting with the traditional style muzzleloader will not view these as advantages, but the person new to the sport will appreciate them. Other than handling and possibly a somewhat faster lock timethe time from pulling the trigger until the mechanism has ignited the powder chargethe two styles are pretty much equal.
What is seen as a major in-line advantage, the superior ballistics of the slug type projectile, has to do only with the inside of the barrel. Most of the in-line rifles on the market are set up with barrels that shoot the slug type projectile well. This allows the hunter to use the heavier bullet which gives better performance on game.
The slug type projectile penetrates game animals more reliably and batters its way through bone and connective tissue to damage vital organs better than do round balls of the same caliber. This is especially true at ranges past 125 yards. However, shots beyond this range are better passed up regardless of the type of gun and bullet if the hunter is not expert and well practiced.
Trajectories begin to get rainbow shaped beyond these ranges and solid hits in vital areas with enough remaining velocity and energy for clean kills become, "iffy," for all but the most expert of muzzleloading shooters.
Muzzleloaders do not have the high velocity impact that centerfire rifles do, regardless of the powder charge and the bullet. Therefore, bullet placement becomes very important.
In 1990, Al Marion and Gene Autry of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game did some very extensive research comparing various types of muzzleloading firearms and projectiles. They reached some very interesting conclusions which were published by the Idaho Department.
Among their more startling conclusions, they found that the length of the barrel had no practical effect upon performance. The slight differences in velocities between barrel lengths represented less than a 10 grain change in powder charge. Therefore, it was their conclusion that barrel had more to do with aesthetics, balance, weight and personal preference than with ballistics.
They also point out that the rifling form and twist often dictate which type of bullet is best, which have already been addressed here in detail.
A very interesting statement made in the Idaho research was that the differences between the flattest and the most curved trajectories of all projectiles tested were relatively minor out to 125 yards. (Ed.- they tested round balls and short elongated bullets. Whites longer bullets were not available at the time.)
This certainly backs up my own experience and explains why I feel that regardless of the gun/projectile combination used, the hunter must realize that he or she is shooting a relatively short range firearm, with limited range and power, compared to the high velocity centerfire they may be accustomed to.
...If it loads from the muzzle with Black Powder or equivalent substitute and separate projectile, it is a muzzleloader and the ballistics will be those of a muzzleloader...
In summary, muzzleloading rifles using Black Powder simply cannot be loaded to the point where they remotely approach centerfire velocities and trajectories. It makes no difference how the "fire is lit" in the barrel of the muzzleloader, whether by side hammer, percussion or flintlock, in-line action, or for that matter, miquillette, dog-lock, wheel-lock or by fuse, the ballistics are essentially similar.
Whether shooting modern or traditional, good shooting stance and technique are the same.
The length of the barrel makes no practical difference in hunting ballistics. Even the projectile used makes little difference in the trajectories involved, when compared with modern rifle performance, within the first 125 yards. The projectile can make a very real difference in accuracy and terminal ballistics upon impacting game animals, however.
So, the major difference that can be discerned between muzzleloading guns is inside the barrel and, therefore, the projectile types best used. How the gun looks and what style it follows has nothing to do with ballistics and game harvesting ability. The looks of the firearm has nothing to do with how far it will shoot or how accurate it is.
If it loads from the muzzle with Black Powder or equivalent substitute and separate projectile, it is a muzzleloader and the ballistics will be those of a muzzleloader.
J W Carlson
Now for those that think the "modern" inlines are too "modern", I put this up for your reading pleasure, and to put an end to the endless argument.
THE INLINE WAS IN SERVICE BEFORE THE SIDELOCK.
This was gleaned from another "muzzleloader" web site
The thing that we need to remember here is that the type of bullet that a given rifle will shoot best has nothing to do with its looks or style. It has to do with the inside of the barrel. The twist and rifling depth are the major factors that determine the type of projectile that the rifle will handle best.
The outside shape of the barrel and its length have very little to do with the ballistics of that barrel with a given bullet.
By the same token, how the gun is fired has little or no relationship to the external ballistics. Whether the gun is fired with a flintlock, percussion cap, side hammer lock, in-line action or fuse makes no appreciable difference in the ballisticsread trajectory and velocityof the bullet launched by that gun.
A fine, Golden Age Kentucky rifle with a traditional flintlock ignition system can be fitted with a barrel that has shallow rifling and a fast twist to shoot a 500 grain slug type bullet. This gun, while very traditional looking, will shoot exactly the same as the in-line with the same caliber and barrel specifications. The reverse would also be true, if the inline had a round ball barrel mounted.
In 1808, a French gunsmith living and working in England patented a "superior mechanism for the firing of firearms" called, for the lack of a better term, an "in-line" action. The patent is virtually the same as the "new" in-line actions that are on the market. Jean Samuel Pauley, the inventor, actually came up with the mechanism before the percussion cap came into common use. This was a couple of years after the percussion system was invented by the Scottish minister Forsyth. Pauleys patent uses an in-line striker and many of the other things that so . Pauleys patent uses an in-line striker and many of the other things that so inflame the traditionalist. So the percussion in-line is certainly not new.
IBohemian in-line flintlock action by Stanislaus Paczelt, 1738. All flintlock parts are contained within the enclosed action behind the barrel. The touch-hole fires through the breech plug in classic in-line fashion.
To further traditionalize the in-line, the tower of London collections contain an in-line flintlock smooth-bore that was made by a Bohemian gunsmith named Stanislaus Paczelt in 1738. Yes, you read that right, 1738. The action of the gun is almost exactly the same as the modern in-line also. It utilizes coil springs and a shooting and cocking trigger, the cocking trigger to pull the striker containing the flint backward to the cocked position and the shooting trigger to fire the gun. The striker holding the flint drives forward under the tension of the coil spring and hits a frizzen that is hinged onto the barrel breach, rotating up out of the way when hit by the flint, exposing the small pan in the breechplug of the barrel.
When the frizzen is shut, there is nothing projecting beyond the line of the barrela typical in-line featuredated 1738.
In the collections of the National Museum in Munich, Germany, is a double barrel smoothbore gun using the same action for each barrel, but cocked using small cocking knobs on each side of the barrel set, exactly as the modern in-line uses. This gun is in much better shape and was made in the same area by another gunsmith, it would appear. Both guns have stocks that resemble modern shotgun stocks to a surprising degree. The double gun is dated to the last half of the 18th Century.
The stock style of the modern in-line looks more like a modern bolt action rifle than the classic american muzzleloader, which includes the Kentucky style guns and the famous Hawken type rifle of Mountain Man fame. However, if you compare the modern in-line style of stock with English sporting rifles of the late 18th through 19th centuries, youll see some surprising similarities.
The British understood how to build a stock that fit the shooter so that the gun pointed where he looked and handled heavy recoil well. This isnt surprising when you remember that the British were, and still are, basically shotgunners. Their rifle stocks reflected that. Their shotgun stocks of the period were developed to the point that the style has changed very little on classic shotguns of today.
The British gunmakers made sporting guns with flat, shotgun style butt plates, pistol grips and various other things that we see on modern rifles. They simply didnt go in for the hook butt plate and styling of later american muzzleloading guns.
So, the modern look was certainly around at the same time that the more commonly known american guns were being used. The style may not be classic american muzzleloader but its close to the british and continental style and those guns were certainly in use on these shores in the 18th and 19th centuries. The in-line is not as far out in left field as many traditionalists think.
The advantage of the in-line rifle for the average hunter comes from ease of hunting, safeties and other "controls" being more familiar, and an uncluttered top line which allows the mounting of peep sights and scopes with less trouble than the typical side hammer traditional gun.
The hunter that is used to hunting with the traditional style muzzleloader will not view these as advantages, but the person new to the sport will appreciate them. Other than handling and possibly a somewhat faster lock timethe time from pulling the trigger until the mechanism has ignited the powder chargethe two styles are pretty much equal.
What is seen as a major in-line advantage, the superior ballistics of the slug type projectile, has to do only with the inside of the barrel. Most of the in-line rifles on the market are set up with barrels that shoot the slug type projectile well. This allows the hunter to use the heavier bullet which gives better performance on game.
The slug type projectile penetrates game animals more reliably and batters its way through bone and connective tissue to damage vital organs better than do round balls of the same caliber. This is especially true at ranges past 125 yards. However, shots beyond this range are better passed up regardless of the type of gun and bullet if the hunter is not expert and well practiced.
Trajectories begin to get rainbow shaped beyond these ranges and solid hits in vital areas with enough remaining velocity and energy for clean kills become, "iffy," for all but the most expert of muzzleloading shooters.
Muzzleloaders do not have the high velocity impact that centerfire rifles do, regardless of the powder charge and the bullet. Therefore, bullet placement becomes very important.
In 1990, Al Marion and Gene Autry of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game did some very extensive research comparing various types of muzzleloading firearms and projectiles. They reached some very interesting conclusions which were published by the Idaho Department.
Among their more startling conclusions, they found that the length of the barrel had no practical effect upon performance. The slight differences in velocities between barrel lengths represented less than a 10 grain change in powder charge. Therefore, it was their conclusion that barrel had more to do with aesthetics, balance, weight and personal preference than with ballistics.
They also point out that the rifling form and twist often dictate which type of bullet is best, which have already been addressed here in detail.
A very interesting statement made in the Idaho research was that the differences between the flattest and the most curved trajectories of all projectiles tested were relatively minor out to 125 yards. (Ed.- they tested round balls and short elongated bullets. Whites longer bullets were not available at the time.)
This certainly backs up my own experience and explains why I feel that regardless of the gun/projectile combination used, the hunter must realize that he or she is shooting a relatively short range firearm, with limited range and power, compared to the high velocity centerfire they may be accustomed to.
...If it loads from the muzzle with Black Powder or equivalent substitute and separate projectile, it is a muzzleloader and the ballistics will be those of a muzzleloader...
In summary, muzzleloading rifles using Black Powder simply cannot be loaded to the point where they remotely approach centerfire velocities and trajectories. It makes no difference how the "fire is lit" in the barrel of the muzzleloader, whether by side hammer, percussion or flintlock, in-line action, or for that matter, miquillette, dog-lock, wheel-lock or by fuse, the ballistics are essentially similar.
Whether shooting modern or traditional, good shooting stance and technique are the same.
The length of the barrel makes no practical difference in hunting ballistics. Even the projectile used makes little difference in the trajectories involved, when compared with modern rifle performance, within the first 125 yards. The projectile can make a very real difference in accuracy and terminal ballistics upon impacting game animals, however.
So, the major difference that can be discerned between muzzleloading guns is inside the barrel and, therefore, the projectile types best used. How the gun looks and what style it follows has nothing to do with ballistics and game harvesting ability. The looks of the firearm has nothing to do with how far it will shoot or how accurate it is.
If it loads from the muzzle with Black Powder or equivalent substitute and separate projectile, it is a muzzleloader and the ballistics will be those of a muzzleloader.
J W Carlson
So with all of this "new" information you have digested.....my suggestion, if I was dictator of hunting seasons, would be that to be a "true primitive season",
Nothing but inline muzzloaders would be allowed in the field, untill late season when everything is shot up, and then put the modern sidelock season in.
Nothing but inline muzzloaders would be allowed in the field, untill late season when everything is shot up, and then put the modern sidelock season in.
I don't want any of them split.
I was being facitious in my last post.
As I've stated, its a Muzzleloader, and has to be loaded from the muzzle, one shot at a time.
The method to fire that projectile is immaterial.
Shoot what you have, and enjoy your hunt. Thats my bottom line opinion.
Same with archery.
If there were split seasons, round ball only, blah, blah, it would be an enforcment nightmare for our GW's. They are spread out too thin as it is.
Amen to that
I want a seperate Handgun season.
We've covered that in another thread, not to say we can't open another one for further discussion.
http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97842&highlight=handgun+season
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
North East OK WTS: (price drop#2)Ruger 10/22 factory takeoff barrel and flashhider
- Latest: Tin Star Firearms
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
