Is ATF this stupid?

[HiPower]

I'll leave the determination of believeability to you. If it's not true, no harm done. If it IS true....OMFG! Be sure to follow the links embedded within the article, too. Personally, knowing of ATF's other "transgressions", I have no problem believing this as presented.

We now know, however, that the flow of weapons to the south is indeed, in part, coming from within the United States, not from dealers or their civilian customers, but specifically from the BATFE, which has been caught "walking" weapons—recently five hundred semiautomatic AR-15 rifles—across the border into Mexico in order to "boost" the statistics they have been using to try to limit our rights.

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2011/tle602-20110109-03.html

 

[MaddSkillz]

To be expected. Government wants more control which means less rights for us. What they desire most of all is a disarmed people. Organizing "crisis" is not out of the realm of possibility and more probable than most would like to believe. Why people would believe Western governments are incapable of acting this way because they're somehow "too good" to do so, is beyond me.

And the BATF shouldn't even exist.

 

[1shot(bob)]

+1 Madd.

 

[angsniper]

Is ATF this stupid?

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

[Glocktogo]

I''m not going to comment on the reliability of this source, because I've never heard of it. However, accusing the BATFE of knowingly smuggling guns into Mexico in order to pin the blame on American gun dealers needs to come with a lot more than "We now know...".

Someone in Congress definitely needs to conduct an investigation into the BATFE claims on all these guns. Do they have lists of verifiable serial numbers and corresponding gun trace reports? Have they had full access to every weapon siezed by Mexican authorities? Have the BATFE and news organizations conducted due diligence in their investigations of these claims? Or have they simply been spoon fed what they want to hear by Mexican officials and then run with it?

I've long felt that many of the guns the Mexican cartels use have come from America. But not off the streets. More likely they've been handed to the cartels by corrupt Mexican law enforcement and military members. Guns given to them by the U.S. government to fight the war on drugs.

American citizens are being blamed for something they themselves cannot verify, by both governments and the media. It's way past time that someone held all of them to some standards of integrity. It's way past due for someone like the NRA, Professional Gun Retailers Association or the National Association of Federally Licensed Firearms Dealers filed suit to force them to either release the proof, or STFU!!!

 

[Street Rat]

Whether the subject of this article is true or not, there is some truth in the article itself. What better state for this shooting to happen in than Arizona to help further the agenda of the left and make the republican house look bad for the next election?

If this story is true, I haven't followed the links in the story yet, but if it is true, we need to get mad about it, and this needs to get out to the people. I'm tired of hearing debates on whether or not I can keep my guns, the debate was over 200 years ago, have we forgotten what the second ammendment is for, I think even some of us here don't want to talk about it, because we might be thought of as a nut case or paranoid.

Bare with me, this is from The Karate Kid, sue me, it was one of my favorite movies growing up.

Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
Miyagi: Someone always know more.
Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
Miyagi: So?
Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
Miyagi: That what you think?
Daniel: No.
Miyagi: Then why train?
Daniel: So I won't have to fight.
Miyagi: Miyagi have hope for you

I believe the same can be said in relation to guns and the government and what our founding fathers had in mind.

 

[vvvvvvv]

I'm tired of hearing debates on whether or not I can keep my guns, the debate was over 200 years ago, have we forgotten what the second ammendment is for, I think even some of us here don't want to talk about it, because we might be thought of as a nut case or paranoid.

Too bad everyone's favorite lobbying organizations pushed the Supreme Court to rule that the Second Amendment does not protect that right.

 

[Street Rat]

Too bad everyone's favorite lobbying organizations pushed the Supreme Court to rule that the Second Amendment does not protect that right.

If you're talking about Heller vs DC, I did read something about the defense should have gone beyond what it did and used their wording differently. Welp, I guess if the supreme court nullifies the 2A, just tell me where I can turn my guns in. I wonder if they will give me a sticker that says "I turned my guns in today" like the ones you get when you vote...,will we get to vote anymore once we turn in our guns?

 

[HiPower]

Someone in Congress definitely needs to conduct an investigation into the BATFE claims on all these guns. Do they have lists of verifiable serial numbers and corresponding gun trace reports? Have they had full access to every weapon siezed by Mexican authorities? Have the BATFE and news organizations conducted due diligence in their investigations of these claims? Or have they simply been spoon fed what they want to hear by Mexican officials and then run with it?

In fact, it’s not even close. By all accounts, it’s probably around 17 percent.

What’s true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency’s assistant director, “is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S.”

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

“Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market,” Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced — and of those, 90 percent — 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover — were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

http://www.youdecidepolitics.com/2009/04/02/factcheck-90-of-guns-seized-in-mexico-do-not-come-from-us/

 

[Glocktogo]

I'd like to see BATFE release the records on EXACTLY where those 5,114 guns came from. Did they come from gun dealers, government agencies, individuals?