My ignorance problem

[Phadrian]

Yeah the non toxic issue is what I've heard as well. Over the years the main companies making small primer 45 have been Federal and Blazer. This year I started seeing lots of Speer as well. If you call the ammo manufacturers, they will tell you "Oh the small primer give a better pressure wave, blah, blah, blah." If you ask them we've had Large primer 45 for 100 years, they say "Well back 100 years ago the primers and powder weren't as reliable as today, so you needed the large primer to insure proper ignition." To cut through the baloney it's a matter of cost. Small primers are cheaper than large primers.

Years ago I switched to small primer 45. Now I can load all the small primer cartridges on my progressive and not change the primer system.

Someone said there no difference in the primers in terms of performance, I looked up some articles and the one I found mentioned that with a small primer 45 got roughly 50 FPS less than a large primer 45 for identical powder charges.

 

[swampratt]

Back from the 2012 era.
I shot same load through my chrony F1 in 45acp and only difference was small primer vs large primer.
They both shot within a few fps of each other

But the small primer had less over all spread between first to last one shot.

Group size was the same.
I did not measure neck ID and case weight and I did not trim.. there was NO crimp on any of them.
I suppose if I fully prepped cases like rifle cases and sorted I may see different results.

I used 4.0gr bullseye and 200gr lead swc.
I have tested different primers in .223 and with a certain powder there was 100fps difference.!!
Change to a different powder and retest and no difference.

Some powders just act different.
So i would not put too much thought into 50fps loss as it may not happen depending on powder used.

I do sort by headstamp in my pistols as the different brands definately shoot different.
15 foot group at 100 yards with some brands and 2 foot groups with others. same load used shot same day.

shoot at 20 feet and no difference can be measured.

 

[magna19]

Someone said there no difference in the primers in terms of performance, I looked up some articles and the one I found mentioned that with a small primer 45 got roughly 50 FPS less than a large primer 45 for identical powder charges.

I could see some powders getting affected by the different primers in the 45.

I do sort by headstamp in my pistols as the different brands definately shoot different.
15 foot group at 100 yards with some brands and 2 foot groups with others. same load used shot same day.

shoot at 20 feet and no difference can be measured.

So you cant measure the difference at 20 ft. but at 100 yds. you get 2 ft groups with some headstamps and 15 ft groups with other headstamps. I would say that is reloader, shooter, measurement error. Why would you give advice not to worry about 50 fps velocity difference read in an article about the 2 different primer sizes in the 45 and turn around and give advice that headstamps cause you to shoot 15 ft groups and other headstamps only 2 ft groups but no difference at 20 ft.

 

[swampratt]

Phadrian stated he read that small primer was 50fps different.

Ok I get that but I was stating some powders that could be true. some powders it may not be true.

At 20 feet away just about any gun will shoot say a paper plate size group on a bad day.
20 feet is not a good distance for testing longer distance things.

Just like a ladder test with my .223 at 100 yards 2.5gr of powder difference is under 1" group.
Take that to 200 yards and get 8" group ..But load all the same powder and get .75" at 100 and 1" at 200 yards.

The little imperfections or say case thickness difference will not show up at short distances like they do at long distances.
And I guarantee you there is a huge difference in case thickness and Alloy makeup in different head stamp rifle and pistol cases.

Go to lexington and take your 45acp loads with mixed cases and shoot at clays or paper plates at 100 yards.
Now shoot just remington or just winchester cases and see what happens.
When dirt flies 7 feet from the target to the right and then 8 feet to the left and high with mixed cases you will know what I am talking about.
Or maybe my guns are picky.
My 357 mag likes winchester cases best. Others do not group as well.
It is what it is.

I have loads for the 357 that shoot great at 20 yards.. under 2".. but at 100 they are barn door size.
Then i have my 100-200 yard load that shoots basketball size at 20 yards but tightens up way out.. same stinking 170gr lead bullet same case but different powder and primer.. odd things happen.

Just get out and shoot and see what your results are.. keep good records of everything.

 

[magna19]

Just like a ladder test with my .223 at 100 yards 2.5gr of powder difference is under 1" group.
Take that to 200 yards and get 8" group ..But load all the same powder and get .75" at 100 and 1" at 200 yards.

Go to lexington and take your 45acp loads with mixed cases and shoot at clays or paper plates at 100 yards.
Now shoot just remington or just winchester cases and see what happens.
When dirt flies 7 feet from the target to the right and then 8 feet to the left and high with mixed cases you will know what I am talking about.
It is what it is.

I have loads for the 357 that shoot great at 20 yards.. under 2".. but at 100 they are barn door size.
Then i have my 100-200 yard load that shoots basketball size at 20 yards but tightens up way out.. same stinking 170gr lead bullet same case but different powder and primer.. odd things happen.

Your 223 test doesn't make any sense. One time its a ladder then its a group. The bullet just cant curve like that and then decide not to curve another time. It aint what it is

Dirt flying at 7 feet left and 8 feet high right at 100 yds. Cmon it could have been just just 6 1/2 feet left and 8 1/2 feet high right. Maybe it aint what it is.

Your 357 sounds like it shoots curve balls too.
There is no way in hell a bullet can go basketball size groups at 20 yds and tighten up way out to be considered useful for any 100-200 yd shooting. It aint what it is

 

[swampratt]

This is why I do not like visiting this sight much.. this stuff is why.
I have no reason to lie no one gains from it.

I did not want to say I out shot my buddies 30-30 at 200 yards with my 357 which did happen.. as that to me is pretty rare.
But my handloads in 357 vs his store ammo in 30-30.

Another odd ball was my savage 10fp 24" barrel .308 groups at 100 yards with 178 A-max were in the .376" area.
12" at 200 would be good for that load..It was the worst change I ever seen.
Head scratcher for sure..Found out when I shot at a shoulder crease on a deer and hit it up high and forward..NOT where I was aiming. Dead right there just the same.

So years ago I began testing at farther than 100 yards . and I no longer rely on bullet trajectory calculators..I would rather shoot and see where my bullets land and go from there.

If you seen the factory barrel piece I cut off that 24" to make it 20.5 you would see why that boat tail 178 was not happy in the last 1/2" of barrel..factory flaw.
Stuff happens.
Get out and shoot and have fun doing it.

 

[magna19]

This is why I do not like visiting this sight much.. this stuff is why.
I have no reason to lie no one gains from it.

I did not want to say I out shot my buddies 30-30 at 200 yards with my 357 which did happen.. as that to me is pretty rare.
But my handloads in 357 vs his store ammo in 30-30.

Another odd ball was my savage 10fp 24" barrel .308 groups at 100 yards with 178 A-max were in the .376" area.
12" at 200 would be good for that load..It was the worst change I ever seen.
Head scratcher for sure..Found out when I shot at a shoulder crease on a deer and hit it up high and forward..NOT where I was aiming. Dead right there just the same.

So years ago I began testing at farther than 100 yards . and I no longer rely on bullet trajectory calculators..I would rather shoot and see where my bullets land and go from there.

If you seen the factory barrel piece I cut off that 24" to make it 20.5 you would see why that boat tail 178 was not happy in the last 1/2" of barrel..factory flaw.
Stuff happens.
Get out and shoot and have fun doing it.

I don't doubt you have fun shooting but some of the ballistic/testing you post is impossible. Not hitting a deer at the spot you aimed when your load shoots .376 groups at 100 yds. but can barely shoot 12" groups at 200 yds. is called a miss. And that is what it is.

 

[Fyrtwuck]

If you really want to see some fussing and cussing, wait till you have some 45 GAP brass mixed in your bucket and makes it to the loader. I’ve had several returned to me at matches that had been shot at the previous months match.

If anyone wants to trade some SPP for LPP, let me know by PM.