Politics, Politicians, the State Legislature and this board.

[dutchwrangler]

Why not just put it to a VOTE and let "the people" decide?

This is the part that I do not understand, why "politicians" think they "need" to decide everything "for the people"..

No politics, no compromise, no fuss.. Put it to a statewide vote and be done with it.
Then, those who are for/against can no longer "bash" the politicians for creating laws. As, it would be "the people" deciding the laws in which they wish to live by.

We don't vote on unalienable rights. God gave them to us. No man can take them away, no matter what laws, mandates or regulations are enacted. The rights may be surpress (as here in Oklahoma), but the right still exists even if not exercised.

As for this entire thread, it's BS. Woe be me, the poor legislator. Well sorry jdagreek, you wanted the job and the responsibility that came with it. Don't cry like a baby towards us "all or nothing" types when we speak our mind (which is another unalienable right). Grow some thicker skin. And do what is right and abolish all laws that restrict our natural rights.

 

[Dale00]

Why not just put it to a VOTE and let "the people" decide?

This is the part that I do not understand, why "politicians" think they "need" to decide everything "for the people"..

No politics, no compromise, no fuss.. Put it to a statewide vote and be done with it.
Then, those who are for/against can no longer "bash" the politicians for creating laws. As, it would be "the people" deciding the laws in which they wish to live by.

I do distinguish a difference between a politician and a legislator, and do not consider all legislators evil..

I understand the sentiment but the Bill of Rights was enacted to protect the inherent rights of the minority from the will of the majority. Otherwise we could vote on which religions to allow, who gets to give speeches and write books and newspaper articles etc.

Legislators have too high an opinion of themselves when they think they can restrict any of the rights laid out in the Bill of Rights. And whoever is pulling the strings of the legislators to block restoration of second amendment rights needs to become enlightened enough to look around at other states where things are just fine in spite of open carry, campus concealed carry, constitutional carry etc.

 

[seurto]

I understand the sentiment but the Bill of Rights was enacted to protect the inherent rights of the minority from the will of the majority. Otherwise we could vote on which religions to allow, who gets to give speeches and write books and newspaper articles etc.

Legislators have too high an opinion of themselves when they think they can restrict any of the rights laid out in the Bill of Rights. And whoever is pulling the strings of the legislators to block restoration of second amendment rights needs to become enlightened enough to look around at other states where things are just fine in spite of open carry, campus concealed carry, constitutional carry etc.

I understand these sentiments, I was attempting to play devils advocate and make an end run around jdagreek's arguement/politicisizing stance on the issue. Using the political process to eliminate its own self from the equation of debate and compromise. Not just on the open carry issue, but many, many, others which become politicized when a simple vote would put it to rest. Instead of "the people" having thier legislators represent them, we have politicians selling thier vote to the highest bidder, and then turning around and telling the people how they needed it (whatever new law or regulation) to better the community, when the community never asked for it in the first place.

ALTHOUGH it is an "in-alienable" right, somehow, at some point, "the people" of oklahoma allowed the politicians to take it away from them.
I am not well versed on how or when it happened, but was VERY shocked when I moved here and found out that open carry is not an option (not that I excercised the right often in Louisiana, but, during hurricanes and emergencies as such, open carrying was very common).

 

[jdagreek]

JDAGreek ... before your panties crawl so far up your crack you are chewing them off yourself you might want to take another look at that thread, specifically posts number 32 and 38 ...

Here ... let me link it for you ... http://www.okshooters.com/showthread.php?117052-Our-state-government.&p=1507953#post1507953

Whether you like it or not you are NOT the only person here with extensive experience with politicians ...

Nobody attacked you personally, just like nobody here who posts rants about women are attacking me personally. I will say, though, it does sound like you need to have a hormone panel run ... that or a psych eval ... damn dude ...

BTW, I'm the "enemy" too because I don't believe we need "open carry" ... Nor do I think it is a good idea to do away with the conceal carry laws and let anyone who lives in this great country strap on a gun.

I will be the first to admit that my thought process has a lot to do with how much I know it would impact my husband's job. Nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion on anything ... not on gun control (or the lack thereof), not on whether women are good (or bad), not on whether politicians are the scum of the earth (or not) ...

but for you to take my post (which was my opinion and still stands) and make it out to be a personal attack on you is a bit childish ... Just like me taking a thread on the perils of having a wife to be a personal attack on me.

Who made it out to be a personal attack?

Not I.

You are the one that referred to "all" politicians as liars, crooks and on and on.

And, you are the one making a claim to having a working relationship with politicians.

I surfaced this issue with the hopes of having a sensible discussion on this issue. You seem to just want to fan the flames. That is fine by me. What I will say is that it is no wonder if gun law in Oklahoma gets defeated if it is people like you trying to get it done.

The issue here is how to go about getting it done.

 

[jdagreek]

We don't vote on unalienable rights. God gave them to us. No man can take them away, no matter what laws, mandates or regulations are enacted. The rights may be surpress (as here in Oklahoma), but the right still exists even if not exercised.

As for this entire thread, it's BS. Woe be me, the poor legislator. Well sorry jdagreek, you wanted the job and the responsibility that came with it. Don't cry like a baby towards us "all or nothing" types when we speak our mind (which is another unalienable right). Grow some thicker skin. And do what is right and abolish all laws that restrict our natural rights.

There is so much wrong with the above, it is hard to really get a start.

First, God you may think that God gave you the right to tote a gun, but evidently the people who wrote the Oklahoma law on guns didn't know that. Or, perhaps they just thought they would write Oklahoma law themselves.

No man can take them away? Well it appears to me they already have taken them away. The issue is to get them back.

Look, I am not crying about anything. I am just pointing out some issues that might help us get back what you think God already gave us. I don't need to get any thicker skin, my skin is fine just as it is.

Why don't you offer some constructive insight into this issue instead of throwing rocks?

 

[seurto]

Who made it out to be a personal attack?

Not I.

You are the one that referred to "all" politicians as liars, crooks and on and on.

And, you are the one making a claim to having a working relationship with politicians.

I surfaced this issue with the hopes of having a sensible discussion on this issue. You seem to just want to fan the flames. That is fine by me. What I will say is that it is no wonder if gun law in Oklahoma gets defeated if it is people like you trying to get it done.

The issue here is how to go about getting it done.

And so I pose the question to you again, non-confrontationally...

Why can it not be put to a general populace vote?
To let "the people" decide its fate?

I earnestly wish to know, why, things wich impact the people the most, are seldom ran by the people to be selected.. Sounds like an archy of some ism to me..

 

[jdagreek]

Why not just put it to a VOTE and let "the people" decide?

This is the part that I do not understand, why "politicians" think they "need" to decide everything "for the people"..

No politics, no compromise, no fuss.. Put it to a statewide vote and be done with it.
Then, those who are for/against can no longer "bash" the politicians for creating laws. As, it would be "the people" deciding the laws in which they wish to live by.

I do distinguish a difference between a politician and a legislator, and do not consider all legislators evil..

Hey, I am for putting it to a vote. There are a couple of ways to get that done. Either convince the legislature to do it, or, put up about $500,000 to $600,000 and we can do an initiative petition to get it done. I have experience in doing it and I think it would be very possible to get it done that way. However, it is an expensive process and requires lots of work to make it work. However, with the help of the right people this could be an attractive way to get it done.

 

[BadgeBunny]

Who made it out to be a personal attack?

Not I.

You are the one that referred to "all" politicians as liars, crooks and on and on.

And, you are the one making a claim to having a working relationship with politicians.

I surfaced this issue with the hopes of having a sensible discussion on this issue. You seem to just want to fan the flames. That is fine by me. What I will say is that it is no wonder if gun law in Oklahoma gets defeated if it is people like you trying to get it done.

The issue here is how to go about getting it done.

LOL ... Well ... every single one I ever met (and there were a TON of them) spent their entire waking day working "the angle" ... so ... again ... there you have it. You were the one who said you were offended. But we do seem to agree on one thing ... in the end it is neither here nor there.


The issue, indeed, is how to go about getting something done. I'll do what I can do (vote) and you continue to do whatever it is you do. Maybe between the two of us we can get something done.

BTW ... I never said I had a "working relationship" with any of you guys ... I worked FOR politicians ... so ... yeah ... I DO know what goes on behind closed doors and at dinner in the evenings (not to mention the 3 hour lunches) ... You know, those lunches and dinners charged off to the taxpayers because they are "state business".

 

[dutchwrangler]

There is so much wrong with the above, it is hard to really get a start.

First, God you may think that God gave you the right to tote a gun, but evidently the people who wrote the Oklahoma law on guns didn't know that. Or, perhaps they just thought they would write Oklahoma law themselves.No man can take them away? Well it appears to me they already have taken them away. The issue is to get them back.

Look, I am not crying about anything. I am just pointing out some issues that might help us get back what you think God already gave us. I don't need to get any thicker skin, my skin is fine just as it is.

Why don't you offer some constructive insight into this issue instead of throwing rocks?

Geez, you're level of intellect is poorly displayed here if you are unable to understand the simple concepts of natural law. If I can understand them (and I'm no intellect), surely others who supposedly represent us should be able to do so as well.

At the 1907 Oklahoma constitutional convention, the delegates rejected a proposal to include “common defense” language in the constitutional protection of firearm possession. Instead, the delegates copied nearly verbatim from the Missouri and Colorado constitutions, explicitly protecting “defense of home, person and property” in the right to arms.

The following year, however, the Oklahoma Supreme Court in Ex parte Thomas declared that the right was only for militia-type arms, and that a “pistol” was not within the right to arms. Despite what the Thomas court claimed, there was not a single precedent for the proposition that all handguns could be banned. The Thomas court ignored the Missouri Supreme Court’s precedent that revolvers in general (not just the Army and Navy models) were protected by the state right to arms (State v. Shelby, 1886).

The Oklahoma Supreme Court strangled the state constitution’s right to arms shortly after birth. The outrageous Thomas opinion remains the leading precedent in Oklahoma, and thus for more than a century has deprived the people of Oklahoma of the protection of the strong Right to Keep and Bear Arms that they wrote into their constitution. Fortunately, as of 2011, the Oklahoma Legislature has reformed most of the bad gun laws from the Jim Crow era, but the people of Oklahoma suffered decades of deprivations of their rights—including the Right to Carry—before the legislature finally acted.

Source: http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/dark-secret-of-jim-crow.html

The "laws" (notice the use of quotes) are the result of the Jim Crow era where the continued suppression of rights of free blacks eventually lead to legislators willing to exploit in order to suppress the same rights regardless of race.

 

[seurto]

Hey, I am for putting it to a vote. There are a couple of ways to get that done. Either convince the legislature to do it, or, put up about $500,000 to $600,000 and we can do an initiative petition to get it done. I have experience in doing it and I think it would be very possible to get it done that way. However, it is an expensive process and requires lots of work to make it work. However, with the help of the right people this could be an attractive way to get it done.

I think you have your answer right there, it would only take 30,000 people donating $20 to raise the cash.. I would imagine it would take many more people voting on it, to get it to pass...

Soooo, if you cant get 30,000 to donate $20.. See where I'm going here guys (jda and the hardcores who feel its an "inalienable right")..
Intestinal fortitude is what is lacking in the general populace.

There's plenty of people out there readily available to complain about something, but few who actually do something to attempt to rectify it.

Not that I am attempting to point a finger at anyone, just saying, there's plenty of blame to go around.. until you get past the blame game, the circle jerk will have plenty of participants to continue.. IMO.