Dumpstick, I have read several articles talking about what you are saying. Some even say decrease the charge by 40%. That is a considerable decrease in the powder charge and it should drop point of impact a lot. I have considered trying it just in case I have to use that ammo in the future. I am also curious to see what it does to the group. However, in the long run I am going to work up a load that gets me on target with the powder and bullets I have. If I decrease the factory load to shoot I will chronograph to see what the ballistics and group are and post it. Thanks for the tip.
Dumpstick, I have read several articles talking about what you are saying. Some even say decrease the charge by 40%. That is a considerable decrease in the powder charge and it should drop point of impact a lot. I have considered trying it just in case I have to use that ammo in the future. I am also curious to see what it does to the group. However, in the long run I am going to work up a load that gets me on target with the powder and bullets I have. If I decrease the factory load to shoot I will chronograph to see what the ballistics and group are and post it. Thanks for the tip.
@OKBPS
Let me give an example of what I did with some PPU factory 7.62x54r. This is 150gr, standard ammo. I only fired 5 round groups, just as a test, but it will give you an idea.
I pulled down 20 rounds.
-Powder charge was avg at 51.0gr, but varied as much as 2.5gr. Powder at 51gr filled the case to the bottom of the neck.
-Bullet weight was remarkably consistent, avg was 148.88gr
-bullet diameter was very consistent at .3116
I dropped the powder charge in stages, looking for ignition anomalies.
I resized the necks, and reassembled the ammo to factory length, and crimped with a Lee Collet Crimp, as the factory ammo was also crimped.
fired over a chrono:
51.0gr - Vel 2868, ES 49, SD 23.1
48.0gr - Vel 2555, ES 3, SD 1.5 (WOW!!!)
45.0gr - Vel 2438, ES 46, SD 20.3
42.5gr - Vel 2324, ES 56, SD 21.3
As you can see, I reduced the powder charge a bit over 15%, and had no ignition problems. The spread is comparable to factory. Accuracy was best in my rifle with the 42.5gr, but yours may be different.
I see no problems with the example I gave. I've done this with other ammo with similar results. If you drop the charge below 80% of factory, I would recommend a small tuft of Dacron fill to keep the powder back against the primer.
I have a load I'm testing in my M39 with cast lead: 26.0 - 28.5gr IMR 4895 with a ~.75gr tuft of Dacron loosely pushed in the case. It's well below load-book data, but I have no ignition inconsistencies. This load is down around the 60% of recommended, an issue you touched on in your above reply.
Let me give an example of what I did with some PPU factory 7.62x54r. This is 150gr, standard ammo. I only fired 5 round groups, just as a test, but it will give you an idea.
I pulled down 20 rounds.
-Powder charge was avg at 51.0gr, but varied as much as 2.5gr. Powder at 51gr filled the case to the bottom of the neck.
-Bullet weight was remarkably consistent, avg was 148.88gr
-bullet diameter was very consistent at .3116
I dropped the powder charge in stages, looking for ignition anomalies.
I resized the necks, and reassembled the ammo to factory length, and crimped with a Lee Collet Crimp, as the factory ammo was also crimped.
fired over a chrono:
51.0gr - Vel 2868, ES 49, SD 23.1
48.0gr - Vel 2555, ES 3, SD 1.5 (WOW!!!)
45.0gr - Vel 2438, ES 46, SD 20.3
42.5gr - Vel 2324, ES 56, SD 21.3
As you can see, I reduced the powder charge a bit over 15%, and had no ignition problems. The spread is comparable to factory. Accuracy was best in my rifle with the 42.5gr, but yours may be different.
I see no problems with the example I gave. I've done this with other ammo with similar results. If you drop the charge below 80% of factory, I would recommend a small tuft of Dacron fill to keep the powder back against the primer.
I have a load I'm testing in my M39 with cast lead: 26.0 - 28.5gr IMR 4895 with a ~.75gr tuft of Dacron loosely pushed in the case. It's well below load-book data, but I have no ignition inconsistencies. This load is down around the 60% of recommended, an issue you touched on in your above reply.
Well, your info here makes me want to go ahead and just reduce some factory loads and see if I can hit the target. Thanks for the information.
Yeah, I don't like the recoil either. When I was younger it didn't bother me all that much, but I don't think I could make it through a 60 round match with factory ammo.
I also use a PAST recoil shield, it works. Or, maybe it's the Caldwell. Looks like this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C5XOJQ?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1
Also, if your M91 has the standard Mosin stock, buy one of these
https://www.amazon.com/AIM-SPORTS-Nagant-Extended-Buttpad/dp/B003VPEBH4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=DF54RUUW6HN5&dchild=1&keywords=mosin+nagant+recoil+pad&qid=1584279247&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=Mosin+nagant+recoil,sporting,267&sr=1-2
It's $9. It will extend the length of pull on that Mosin, so milk-weaned 'Muricans can shoot it. When you get it, drill out the little holes, it will mitigate the recoil even more.
I also use a PAST recoil shield, it works. Or, maybe it's the Caldwell. Looks like this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C5XOJQ?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1
Also, if your M91 has the standard Mosin stock, buy one of these
https://www.amazon.com/AIM-SPORTS-Nagant-Extended-Buttpad/dp/B003VPEBH4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=DF54RUUW6HN5&dchild=1&keywords=mosin+nagant+recoil+pad&qid=1584279247&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=Mosin+nagant+recoil,sporting,267&sr=1-2
It's $9. It will extend the length of pull on that Mosin, so milk-weaned 'Muricans can shoot it. When you get it, drill out the little holes, it will mitigate the recoil even more.
A friend has one of those on his gun but all he shoots is factory ammo. Would rather not add anything to the rifle. I have a pad but didn't need it when I shot the match last month. Hopefully I will have it figured out for next months shoot.Yeah, I don't like the recoil either. When I was younger it didn't bother me all that much, but I don't think I could make it through a 60 round match with factory ammo.
I also use a PAST recoil shield, it works. Or, maybe it's the Caldwell. Looks like this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001C5XOJQ?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1
Also, if your M91 has the standard Mosin stock, buy one of these
https://www.amazon.com/AIM-SPORTS-Nagant-Extended-Buttpad/dp/B003VPEBH4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=DF54RUUW6HN5&dchild=1&keywords=mosin+nagant+recoil+pad&qid=1584279247&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=Mosin+nagant+recoil,sporting,267&sr=1-2
It's $9. It will extend the length of pull on that Mosin, so milk-weaned 'Muricans can shoot it. When you get it, drill out the little holes, it will mitigate the recoil even more.
I think I saw where OKBPS is only going to chamfer once. I was doing a little research over on accurateshooter and snipershide. Most don’t chamfer every time but some do.
@Dumpstick and @swampratt , what do you guys do?
@Dumpstick and @swampratt , what do you guys do?
I anneal every time on rifle cases.
I have tested annealed vs not annealed.
I like to pin tumble the cases in my solution with copper pins and brush necks before and after sizing the case.
Every time on that.
I have tried hand cleaning no tumbling and accuracy is less with hand cleaning.
I trim and chamfer each time for accuracy bound ammo.
If it is a brass fail test just shoot a piece of brass to fail point I will forgo many steps and I will let the case grow to the point it is almost in the rifling. That is usually .035" past max trim length.
I Full length size my cases also.
Another thing I do is hone/polish my dies so i am not reducing the case size more than .002" anywhere.
Well except for the neck OD area.
Push the shoulder back 0000 or .001" makes cases grow much less.
Neck sizing I have measured case length growth on the order of .0005" for the first couple firings.
After 5 firings and Only neck sizing the case becomes a bit harder to chamber.
Some will then Full Length size.
That makes Zero sense to me.. now the case is way off from the dimension it was when neck sizing.
Now i tested neck sizing past 5 times sized.. and the case now only grew in length .0005" for 2 firings.
I neck sized a particular .308 case 20 times and it was no harder to chamber at 20 times than it was at 5 times.
Leading to the conclusion that after 5 times fired and neck sized the case is bumped up solid into the chamber.
One last thing.
.308 winchester cases I was bumping the shoulders .008" back and I had not begun measuring that aspect and the cases would grow quite a bit .. always knocking .005" or more off the length and chamfering again.
Once I began setting the die to just barely bump the shoulder it made case length growth much less.
BUT BUT BUT!!! My accuracy fell off.
Yea less accuracy even after many months of tailoring the load.
I could also never get the accuracy from neck sizing that i could from full length sizing.
Thinking about that made me remember many writings on wildcat fire forming.
What they wrote was super accuracy with the loaded case during fire forming and after fire forming the loads could not match the fire forming loads.
Is there accuracy to be had pushing that shoulder way back. I believe there is and you will sacrifice brass life to find that out if there is accuracy in your rifle by doing it.
I do notice larger groups if i mix cases that have different shoulder ogive measurements.
Just another parameter in case prep to drive ya nuts.
You are welcome.
I have tested annealed vs not annealed.
I like to pin tumble the cases in my solution with copper pins and brush necks before and after sizing the case.
Every time on that.
I have tried hand cleaning no tumbling and accuracy is less with hand cleaning.
I trim and chamfer each time for accuracy bound ammo.
If it is a brass fail test just shoot a piece of brass to fail point I will forgo many steps and I will let the case grow to the point it is almost in the rifling. That is usually .035" past max trim length.
I Full length size my cases also.
Another thing I do is hone/polish my dies so i am not reducing the case size more than .002" anywhere.
Well except for the neck OD area.
Push the shoulder back 0000 or .001" makes cases grow much less.
Neck sizing I have measured case length growth on the order of .0005" for the first couple firings.
After 5 firings and Only neck sizing the case becomes a bit harder to chamber.
Some will then Full Length size.
That makes Zero sense to me.. now the case is way off from the dimension it was when neck sizing.
Now i tested neck sizing past 5 times sized.. and the case now only grew in length .0005" for 2 firings.
I neck sized a particular .308 case 20 times and it was no harder to chamber at 20 times than it was at 5 times.
Leading to the conclusion that after 5 times fired and neck sized the case is bumped up solid into the chamber.
One last thing.
.308 winchester cases I was bumping the shoulders .008" back and I had not begun measuring that aspect and the cases would grow quite a bit .. always knocking .005" or more off the length and chamfering again.
Once I began setting the die to just barely bump the shoulder it made case length growth much less.
BUT BUT BUT!!! My accuracy fell off.
Yea less accuracy even after many months of tailoring the load.
I could also never get the accuracy from neck sizing that i could from full length sizing.
Thinking about that made me remember many writings on wildcat fire forming.
What they wrote was super accuracy with the loaded case during fire forming and after fire forming the loads could not match the fire forming loads.
Is there accuracy to be had pushing that shoulder way back. I believe there is and you will sacrifice brass life to find that out if there is accuracy in your rifle by doing it.
I do notice larger groups if i mix cases that have different shoulder ogive measurements.
Just another parameter in case prep to drive ya nuts.
You are welcome.
I chamfer only if I trim the length. I trim the length only when I get .002 difference in a batch of brass, then I trim the entire batch to the same length.
I neck size the brass I use in the matches. I neck size about 3/4way down the neck. I'm not going to get into the argument about neck vs bump sizing, everyone is going to do as they pease anyway.
I have a batch of brass for the 7.62x54r I've fired 10 times without full length sizing, or even "bumping" the shoulder back. No problems chambering.
I anneal every other firing.
I clean the primer pocket before reloading, or if I tumble it, before tumbling.
Most times I don't bother tumbling the brass, I just wash it with hot soap water.
Sometimes I don't even do that. I wipe the brass after it's fired, while it's still hot.
I neck size the brass I use in the matches. I neck size about 3/4way down the neck. I'm not going to get into the argument about neck vs bump sizing, everyone is going to do as they pease anyway.
I have a batch of brass for the 7.62x54r I've fired 10 times without full length sizing, or even "bumping" the shoulder back. No problems chambering.
I anneal every other firing.
I clean the primer pocket before reloading, or if I tumble it, before tumbling.
Most times I don't bother tumbling the brass, I just wash it with hot soap water.
Sometimes I don't even do that. I wipe the brass after it's fired, while it's still hot.
Thanks guys! After reading all that information my head is spinning and now I need to take a rest. I think the one thing we all agree on is that every gun is different and each person will need to find what their gun likes. And yes, we will all do something different. I have 3 loads to test, 10 rounds each, and will have 5 to test before the day is out. Hopefully I will find one to tailor to shoot with. As soon as I set my annealer to do this brass I will probably anneal every time. Other than that I will chose a step, maybe 2, to add each time until I fine tune the load what works for me. Glad I have this week off.
